Schertler Versus Waverly Tuners on High End Builds

[B....]

Originally Posted by Itzkinguitars

I think of schertler as the wish.com version of alessi haha

I just recently bought a few sets of machine heads from Kris Barnett in Berlin, just like his guitars he’s gone completely overboard designing and engineering them (6 bearings per string). They’re smoother and more accurate than the alessi, rodgers, and scheller I’ve used and installed, significantly cheaper, and offer quite a bit of customization. They’re not yet officially on the market but Kris mentioned he’s thinking of offering steel string versions at some point. I think the reasonable cost and ultra high quality would be a game changer for the steel string machine head market

Does Kris Barnett have solid headstock tuners for sale now or is that only a thought at present? I sure would like to be able to try the Alessi or Rodgers tuners as Waverly replacement but I can't see myself enlarging the holes in the headstock on my boutique Dreadnought. I'm kinda stuck with Waverly I guess. That's unfortunate. Thanks for your post.

[Itzkinguitars]

Originally Posted by B....

Does Kris Barnett have solid headstock tuners for sale now or is that only a thought at present? I sure would like to be able to try the Alessi or Rodgers tuners as Waverly replacement but I can't see myself enlarging the holes in the headstock on my boutique Dreadnought. I'm kinda stuck with Waverly I guess. That's unfortunate. Thanks for your post.

No steel string machines just yet, still in early planning from what I’ve last heard. The classical machines (the machines he’s focused on) haven’t been officially released to the public yet so expect quite a wait. I believe rodgers steel string tuners use a 6mm shaft so I’d assume you could use them in place of waverly. Bear in mind these are rather expensive especially without the luthier/wholesale discount; expect to pay about 800-1000 for the single machine set.

[B....]

Originally Posted by Itzkinguitars

No steel string machines just yet, still in early planning from what I’ve last heard. The classical machines (the machines he’s focused on) haven’t been officially released to the public yet so expect quite a wait. I believe rodgers steel string tuners use a 6mm shaft so I’d assume you could use them in place of waverly. Bear in mind these are rather expensive especially without the luthier/wholesale discount; expect to pay about 800-1000 for the single machine set.

Rodgers have a 10mm bushing (headstock hole),which would be the governing factor for installation I believe. I would need to enlarge the present holes in my headstock to a minimum depth of the bushing (8mm). That's a tricky operation to do well. It's the guitar to take with me when I go so I better get it right if I do it.
https://www.rodgers-tuning-machines....-instructions/ Click on "Solid Head Steel String"

[Itzkinguitars]

Originally Posted by B....

Rodgers have a 10mm bushing (headstock hole),which would be the governing factor for installation I believe. I would need to enlarge the present holes in my headstock to a minimum depth of the bushing (8mm). That's a tricky operation to do well. It's the guitar to take with me when I go so I better get it right if I do it.
https://www.rodgers-tuning-machines....-instructions/ Click on "Solid Head Steel String"

Yes I see, the shaft is the same quarter inch as waverly so you’d just need to enlarge the front face of the hole to accept the slightly wider bushing. (waverly bushings are 8ish mil). Pretty straightforward work, a few turn of a reamer should do.

[B....]

Originally Posted by Itzkinguitars

Yes I see, the shaft is the same quarter inch as waverly so youÂ’d just need to enlarge the front face of the hole to accept the slightly wider bushing. (waverly bushings are 8ish mil). Pretty straightforward work, a few turn of a reamer should do.

Thanks for that. I've seen that as being the prefered method on a number of other sites as well. The issue I have with the reamer is the tapered hole sides - ever so slight as that may be. The tolerances of this tuner are undoubtedly very exact (unlike Waverly), & any movement in the bushing may result in binding of sorts. Perhaps with the surface of the hole @ 10mm, the bottom of the bushing would still be able to compress the mahogany for an extra tight fit at the bottom. (Please advise). Other than that; careful hand drilling after reaming could remove the lower taper.
Another point you could comment on if you wouldn't mind > Rodgers mentions the smooth sided of the bushings having 2 concentric grooves for supergluing in place. That seems excessive to me (other than rectifying any potential bushing movement), & rather impractical in the event of needing to remove the bushing. I have found that plumbers tape is very useful alternative in this type of application. Rodgers also provide splined bushings if requested (as per Waverly), but that would make removal even more of an issue, considering the new shape of the headstock hole. The press fit of the smooth sided bushing with plumbers tape seems to me to be the most sensible approach. Please advise. Thank you again for your insight.

I will first access my incoming Waverly high ratio tuners before deciding, but my PKT Dreadnought is SO exquisite that tuners of the highest quality would be most welcomed.
EDIT: Is there any way to attach an image from my computer or only from the internet? Thanks

[Bruce Sexauer]

A European violin peg reamer is exactly 10 mm at its wide end. Running it all the way through the headstock from both sides makes a clean 10 mm hole. It is easy to get the hole off square to the headstock face if you do not pay attention. There is no reason I know to keep a 1/4" hole on the head back face, and at least one great reason not to: It is easier to install a Waverly (or similar) w/o the problem I described earlier if it's one big hole.

No one mentions them much, but the Gotoh butterbean is actually the best functioning tuner of its type. I had used several sets before I realized they get little respect in the market place (making it harder to sell guitars using them) and they worked better then, and they work fine 20 years later. At the time
"people" said they would wear out quickly. Not so, IMO. Their screw holes are slightly closer together than most other ButterBeans.

[B....]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

A European violin peg reamer is exactly 10 mm at its wide end. Running it all the way through the headstock from both sides makes a clean 10 mm hole. It is easy to get the hole off square to the headstock face if you do not pay attention. There is no reason I know to keep a 1/4" hole on the head back face, and at least one great reason not to: It is easier to install a Waverly (or similar) w/o the problem I described earlier if it's one big hole.

No one mentions them much, but the Gotoh butterbean is actually the best functioning tuner of its type. I had used several sets before I realized they get little respect in the market place (making it harder to sell guitars using them) and they worked better then, and they work fine 20 years later. At the time
"people" said they would wear out quickly. Not so, IMO. Their screw holes are slightly closer together than most other ButterBeans.

Thank you. Can you provide a link for that reamer please. I see one with 1:30 taper ratio but no wide end dimension but not available at present. Is that the prefered ratio? https://www.fruugo.ca/violin-peg-rea...4449955b&utm_s

[jim1960]

I have no experience with super high end tuners but among the usual contenders, Schertler is the best I've used. I do with they'd come out with a version that leans a little more traditional or would fit in the space typically given on a head stock. The Schertlers are a bit longer than most other tuners so using them as replacements doesn't always work.

[Bruce Sexauer]

This appears to spec right:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/35401158619...4AAOSwT~dgSY8X

[B....]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

This appears to spec right:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/35401158619...4AAOSwT~dgSY8X

Thanks Bruce. Still not sure why you think 10mm right through is better.
With regard to reaming the hole unsquare to the top surface : To keep it centred without moving from side to side while turning I would think about this:
1. place the reamer in the hole from the top side. 2. measure the diameter of the reaming steel with a caliper at the back side as it protrudes. 3. I would then drill that size hole in a 1"x2" piece of soft wood. 4. Center that hole in the softwood on the backside of the headstock hole, while looking through from the top side. 5. Clamp the softwoon in position, protecting the headstock with a couple layers of painters tape. 6. This will keep the reamer centred as you work, increasing the softwood hole at the same rate as the headstock hole. This of course requires 6 pcs of softwood with holes. 12 pcs if wanting to reverse from the other side. Does that seem logical ? Thanks again Bruce.

[Bruce Sexauer]

Personally, I just eyeball it, but I do have to adjust constantly.

[B....]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

Personally, I just eyeball it, but I do have to adjust constantly.

I'm sorry for my misunderstanding of the "10mm through" you spoke about. I think you were referring to a 1/4" hole through to start with. My dreadnought headstock was drilled through for the size of the Waverly ferrule, my "softwood solution was based on that. (no real need for 10mm right though).
I have tried to contact Rob Rodgers re info & an order but he hasn't replied for days now. Not sure what that's about. Maybe he's trying to save me a truckload of $. :
EDIT: Stewmac has some nice reamers but only 9-1/2mm top end. (???)

[inc0herent]

I just received a build with Schertlers and I really like them. Buttery smooth, consistent and predictable. I'd recommend in cases where the more modern aesthetics work and an 18:1 ratio is acceptable.

13 by Seth Graham, on Flickr

[tommieboy]

Originally Posted by Burton LeGeyt

...Waverlies seem unique in that there is play in the post/body connection- a wavy washer provides the tension but can pretty easily be angled if forced...

I've helped my friend rebuild a few sets of Waverly tuners and have the following insights:

On one set, three of those wavy washers were missing.

On another set, they doubled up on the washers on every tuner.

On another set, a couple of the screws that screw into the posts were too long. Not by much, but just enough to notice a very slight wobble in the posts.

On another set, it seemed to be a combination of everything above, in addition to a damaged nylon washer that required the removal/reinstallation of the spanner nut/bushing. That set is now installed on my Froggy.

We don't believe any of those sets were delivered new like this, but it's harder to believe people would mess with these things after the fact.

Tommy

[B....]

Originally Posted by tommieboy

I've helped my friend rebuild a few sets of Waverly tuners and have the following insights:

On one set, three of those wavy washers were missing.

On another set, they doubled up on the washers on every tuner.

On another set, a couple of the black screws that screw into the posts were too long. Not by much, but just enough to notice a very slight wobble in the posts.

On another set, it seemed to be a combination of everything above, in addition to a damaged nylon washer that required the removal/reinstallation of the spanner nut/bushing. That set is now installed on my Froggy.

We don't believe any of those sets were delivered new like this, but it's harder to believe people would mess with these things after the fact.

Tommy

Those wavy washers are a bit tricky to center during re-assembly. Do you think removing them would still provide good function? IF they aren't centered perfectly you can't get the post square. EDIT: I couldn't resist trying to understand the construction so I took one of an old set apart. NOT advisable.