The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 04-19-2021, 05:21 PM
Brawndo Brawndo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 8
Unhappy Advice: 1st good acoustic. Burnt out learning.

Hello All. Any advice or learning tools are welcome. Thanks for bearing with the essay.

I'm close to nailing down a new acoustic, but I'm also not sure. Haha. Going kind of crazy. I haven't stopped learning and testing and listening. I'm getting burnt out and leaning towards the first plastic ukulele that someone tries to sell me. I was planning on spending roughly 2000-3000.

What I want:
1. relatively even EQ -I love the general tone of sitka/eir, but don't like how scooped it can be. I like present, crisp mids available. I've been attracted to myrtlewood, for body at least, bc it tends to have an even EQ, projects well when a top, and is pretty. This puts me in the breedlove wheelhouse, but I'm open to almost anything. My brain has been reeling with walnut, blackwood, ovangkol, sapele, etc. I was very attracted to redwood as a top at first, but I'm not so sure anymore.
2. Good projection. I want to thread the needle between something that can push it loudly with good headroom, but also respond dynamically when fingerpicking.
3. Low end that you can hear well when playing -I feel like lows and some mids "disappear" when you're the player, but magically reappear when you hear your recording or have another person play. This is more prominent to me on OM/concert/GA sizes, which are also the sizes I prefer, lol. (I do really like the Breedlove concerto size, as it seems to be sort of a weird dready/OM/GA thing in terms of versatility). Shop owners and other users give me conflicting information. For instance, I tried a Taylor 414(r) and it was lovely, but I didn't like the weaker low end and more than one person said: "that will open up in time." Others said: "get the guitar for how it sounds now, not for what you think it'll sound like one day!"
4. I love overtones/harmonics, but don't like it when they muddy the tone/stifle headroom when you hit it hard or leave them ringing. Where's the middle ground?
5. I need help with mids. Unless something is scooped to oblivion or all mahog I often have trouble picking out where they sit. Are there any playing tests to heard mid presence versus lows and highs? I have been hitting the D/G strings with random punch levels, or playing mid-ish chords like A minor (at various levels of intensity) to see how it holds together or if the fingered chord voice gets gobbled by lower and upper registers. It's been a long slog to train my ear beyond "wow that all mahog is very warm and fundamental heavy, but sounds a little flat" and "wow, that sitka/eir is blossoming on the high end and booms low, but there's something missing."
6. I really don't want anything with a console EQ in the body, like Takamine does. I love that LR Baggs Anthem.

Brands/bodies/tonewoods that I've liked:
a. Breedlove USA made stuff. Concert/concerto sizes in myrtlewood/myrtlewood, sitka/eir, adirondack/eir, sitka/mahog.
b. Furch: they've felt "Taylor-ish" in some ways, but also their own thing and very well made. The model colors are a bit confusing.
c. Larrivee sound good online, but I' haven't held one.
d. Eastman 822 sounds good as well, but is also not around.
e. Taylors are fine. I'm not as attracted to the biggest brands for some reason, particularly Martin. I liked the 414 and 814 just fine. I also like the 324 builder's edition, and it was surprisingly lively and "sustain-y" for mahog top. However, the max volume was kind of like cedar. It wouldn't get loud.

I'm sure I'm forgetting something. I'm sure it's already too much info anyway, so, whatever.

Thanks in advance for any input.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-19-2021, 05:27 PM
tonyo tonyo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Tyalgum New South Wales, Australia
Posts: 1,096
Default

My advice is to find a 2nd hand guitar if you can. And maybe don't spend as much, especially if 2nd hand. Why? Until I'd played for a couple of years, arguably more, I hadn't progressed enough to really know what I needed.

Easy to play is more important as it encourages you to pick up the guitar more often. The sound will come as you improve. I'm a big Taylor fan and owned a great GS8 for a number of years, yet the first Taylor I bought didn't suit me at all and I ended up selling it. Thankfully I bought it 2nd hand in the first place and was able to sell it for within a $100 of what I paid for it, which wouldn't be the case if I bought new.

I was lucky when I started, another guitar playing friend saw my learning style of playing and sold me a 2nd hand guitar of his that really suited me. It make playing a lot easier.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-19-2021, 05:28 PM
RP's Avatar
RP RP is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Charlottesville, VA
Posts: 21,242
Default

Welcome to AGF....
__________________
Emerald X20
Emerald X20-12
Martin D18
Martin 000-15sm
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-19-2021, 05:28 PM
Rockysdad Rockysdad is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,415
Default

Larrivee L body, Sitka top/ your choice of back & sides.
Get your hands on one.
__________________
Herman
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-19-2021, 06:08 PM
RLetson RLetson is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 382
Default

With a $2-3K budget, the field is wide open--and no amount of description of desiderata can substitute for just playing as many instruments as you can (ideally with a player friend, so you can sit on the other side and listen as well as test-drive). Right now extensive test-playing is difficult (and might be impractical for the unfortunately-located), but with that amount of money on the line--and the degree of specificity of taste indicated by your post--it's the surest way to finding an instrument you won't wind up wanting to swap in six months.

And a hearty second to the advice about used guitars--like used cars, they offer considerable bang for the buck, and are already broken in. Of the forty or so guitars I've acquired over the last 60 years, only eight were new. They mostly turned out to be keepers, but even with those, some of their best qualities only showed up after a period of playing. My third-hand Goodall, on the other hand, was all grown up when I bought it, and I recognized that immediately.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-19-2021, 06:15 PM
Brawndo Brawndo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 8
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RP View Post
Welcome to AGF....
Thanks! This is my first post. Wasn't sure if I was supposed to have a big "HEY THIS IS MY FIRST POST!" bit at the beginning or not.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-19-2021, 06:26 PM
Brawndo Brawndo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 8
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyo View Post
My advice is to find a 2nd hand guitar if you can. And maybe don't spend as much, especially if 2nd hand. Why? Until I'd played for a couple of years, arguably more, I hadn't progressed enough to really know what I needed.

Easy to play is more important as it encourages you to pick up the guitar more often. The sound will come as you improve. I'm a big Taylor fan and owned a great GS8 for a number of years, yet the first Taylor I bought didn't suit me at all and I ended up selling it. Thankfully I bought it 2nd hand in the first place and was able to sell it for within a $100 of what I paid for it, which wouldn't be the case if I bought new.

I was lucky when I started, another guitar playing friend saw my learning style of playing and sold me a 2nd hand guitar of his that really suited me. It make playing a lot easier.
Hey, thanks. I've actually been playing 20 years, and I'm not half bad. I've just been playing mediocre acoustics. I don't know why it took me so long to decide that I deserved a good one. My current main acoustic cost about 800, and I have a handful of crappy student acoustics. So this is still a big jump. As far as comfort, I've relatively flexible with necks. I have generally gravitated towards more "modern" and electric-like necks. However, that isn't a deal-breaker. One of my main electrics is a Jazzmaster with the old-school C neck that's like a baseball bat, and it doesn't bother me. I would say I've been fine with the feel of the dozens of Breedloves, Taylors, Furch, Martins I've played. No neck action stood out as superior for my styles of play. MAYBE Breedlove?

I will say that my only comfort issue tends to be proper dreads and jumbos being too annoying to hold and often cause shoulder pain. I'm a relatively big guy (6'2" 200 lbs) but dreads just bug me. Sub-concert sized get too small and I feel like I'm holding a toy. And while I like concert bodies and find them comfy to play, I feel like they look silly when I'm holding them because I'm oversized for the body. heheh.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-19-2021, 06:42 PM
Brawndo Brawndo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 8
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RLetson View Post
the field is wide open--and no amount of description of desiderata can substitute for just playing as many instruments as you can.
This is exactly what I thought someone would say. It's likely the truest answer, too. I have no nearby friends who can shop with me often. However, I have tortured shop owners. "Hey, sorry to bother you again, how does the EQ sound while I'm strumming this this versus the one I was just playing?! Okay, now fingerpicking, can you hear these high overtones as well as me?" or "Would you mind strumming some open chords on this for me?! Thanks!" <-they love me.

Luckily, I live in a good area for shops and trying things out. I've visited 6 well stocked locally owned shops all within 50-60 min driving radius, and there are still some others I haven't gone to yet. Even living in a "convenient" area, I'm just worn out from driving and trying. (Boston Metro, and I haven't even gone to Music Emporium yet). I have ALMOST pulled the trigger on a few, but I just don't 100% trust the idea of opening up. Sitka will open up, everyone swears, and add richness to bass, but will myrtlewood top? Adi? Port orford? Also, I get stuck with the "wanting everything" problem. I had an adi/eir, sitka/mahog, mahog/ash, and myrtle-myrtle in immediate rotation at one shop and I felt like pulling the trigger on any of them. I couldn't decide. This is the torture of choice, and why I think I've been "content" with mediocre acoustic guitars for 20 years of playing. (I've spent WAY more on custom/customizing electrics, and some of the things I've paid for or done barely matter to play or tone . . . yet I play acoustic 75% of the time).

Last edited by Kerbie; 04-19-2021 at 06:52 PM. Reason: Please refrain from profanity
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-19-2021, 06:46 PM
kcboy kcboy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Land of the Wombats
Posts: 38
Default

When I was in your position, I spent many many hours at multiple guitar stores just playing through all my favorite repertoire. Until I find the guitar that really sings to me. This is the best option, and hardly any substitute for it.

You might want to first narrow down your options through through youtube videos from reputable stores like Sweetwater or Acoustic Center channels. I find them to have good reproduction of the actual guitar tone. I don't trust most others to give good tone reproduction due too inconsistent recording techniques.

Finally, know that your fingers and brain are really amazing tools, which over time fine-tunes your tone on specific guitars.
A lot of the requirements you describe can be adjusted significantly on the same guitar by changing the angle of picking, fingernail length, fingernail shape, and fingernail smoothness (yes very important), muting techniques, choice of pick thickness, the way you hold your pick, flesh thumb, thumb-nail, thumb-pick, choice of string, etc etc...
This is what is meant when a player develops his own unique tone. You can throw a cheap guitar at a very good player, and it will still sound a million dollars.

But most importantly, don't burn out, try to learn and have fun in the process .


Edit: I'll help to address these individually:
What I want:
1. relatively even EQ -I love the general tone of sitka/eir, but don't like how scooped it can be. I like present, crisp mids available. I've been attracted to myrtlewood, for body at least, bc it tends to have an even EQ, projects well when a top, and is pretty. This puts me in the breedlove wheelhouse, but I'm open to almost anything. My brain has been reeling with walnut, blackwood, ovangkol, sapele, etc. I was very attracted to redwood as a top at first, but I'm not so sure anymore.
Play each guitars, the bracing which is unseen is as important as the wood of choice.

2. Good projection. I want to thread the needle between something that can push it loudly with good headroom, but also respond dynamically when fingerpicking.
Play each guitar. I've heard travel guitars louder than dreadnoughts. The bracing and thickness of top affects this greatly.

3. Low end that you can hear well when playing -I feel like lows and some mids "disappear" when you're the player, but magically reappear when you hear your recording or have another person play. This is more prominent to me on OM/concert/GA sizes, which are also the sizes I prefer, lol. (I do really like the Breedlove concerto size, as it seems to be sort of a weird dready/OM/GA thing in terms of versatility). Shop owners and other users give me conflicting information. For instance, I tried a Taylor 414(r) and it was lovely, but I didn't like the weaker low end and more than one person said: "that will open up in time." Others said: "get the guitar for how it sounds now, not for what you think it'll sound like one day!"
The position of sound-hole robs you of the forward projecting tone. Some guitar more than others. Normally not a problem for loud, highly projecting guitars, and if you are playing for yourself, play against a wall (maybe ~ 2-3m in front of you is fine). Yes the tone will be different when someone plays it at you, because of the player, and because it is projecting towards you. Just strum the guitar, and rotate it to face your ears, you will hear a very significant difference.
That said, if you are playing for yourself, then choose the guitar that sound 'right' when played in its normal position. Find a solid wall in the guitar store and play against it. Don't play into empty hallway.


4. I love overtones/harmonics, but don't like it when they muddy the tone/stifle headroom when you hit it hard or leave them ringing. Where's the middle ground?
The string of choice affects this significantly. The playing technique too. If you are still a beginner/intermediate who still haven't mastered controlling overtones using varying picking techniques or finger placement or muting, then your own playing will not be a good measure of this aspect of the guitar.

5. I need help with mids. Unless something is scooped to oblivion or all mahog I often have trouble picking out where they sit. Are there any playing tests to heard mid presence versus lows and highs? I have been hitting the D/G strings with random punch levels, or playing mid-ish chords like A minor (at various levels of intensity) to see how it holds together or if the fingered chord voice gets gobbled by lower and upper registers. It's been a long slog to train my ear beyond "wow that all mahog is very warm and fundamental heavy, but sounds a little flat" and "wow, that sitka/eir is blossoming on the high end and booms low, but there's something missing."
Yes, this is the tone of the guitar. Play each guitar to see what you like. That said, an experienced player can fine-tune the guitar by picking method, fingernail lenght, shape, etc to slightly adjust (slightly) the EQ of the guitar.

6. I really don't want anything with a console EQ in the body, like Takamine does. I love that LR Baggs Anthem. OK, but this shouldn't be the key deciding factor. You will be throwing out too many good options

Last edited by kcboy; 04-19-2021 at 06:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-19-2021, 06:52 PM
stephenT's Avatar
stephenT stephenT is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: GA & MN
Posts: 4,655
Default

Gear is a journey. Best to jump in, you know what you like,... find a nice guitar and buy it.

You may sell it next month, but think of the fun you'll have. And maybe a better defined sense of what specs/brand etc work for you.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-19-2021, 06:54 PM
RP's Avatar
RP RP is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Charlottesville, VA
Posts: 21,242
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brawndo View Post
Thanks! This is my first post. Wasn't sure if I was supposed to have a big "HEY THIS IS MY FIRST POST!" bit at the beginning or not.
Kerbie will contact you to arrange your New Member Party....
__________________
Emerald X20
Emerald X20-12
Martin D18
Martin 000-15sm

Last edited by RP; 04-19-2021 at 07:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-19-2021, 06:55 PM
Bob from Brooklyn Bob from Brooklyn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Hamilton Square, NJ
Posts: 4,090
Default

It sounds to me like some sort of Taylor 400 series would suit you just fine. Don't be afraid to go used. A lot of the bigger shops will list their used inventory online. Otherwise, the Guitar Center 45 day test drive is nothing to sneeze at. Happy hunting and welcome to Guitar Enablers!
__________________
Martin D18
Gibson J45
Martin 00015sm
Gibson J200
Furch MC Yellow Gc-CR SPA
Guild G212
Eastman E2OM-CD
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-19-2021, 07:02 PM
Kerbie Kerbie is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 28,635
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RP View Post
Kerbie will contact you to your arrange your New Member Party....
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-19-2021, 07:04 PM
Brawndo Brawndo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 8
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockysdad View Post
Larrivee L body, Sitka top/ your choice of back & sides.
Get your hands on one.
I haven't had one in my hands, but I've listened to (decent!) audio of the L-03re rosewood back. It sounds good. A bit snappy sounding, but the videos seem to all have new-string-itis. I also like the sound of their OMs.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-19-2021, 07:04 PM
wguitar wguitar is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,810
Default

Welcome to AGF ! FWIW, here are a few thoughts to consider ...

1) Don't equate price with the best guitar for you. For example, there are many great guitars (especially used) in the $1,500 range (give or take). Larrivee is a great example.

2) You'll find any number of guitars that you like, and ALL may well be a good choice --- no need for buyer's remorse OR "should've bought the other brand" or whatever.

3) Don't shop for "The ONE (forever)" guitar, but buy one that speaks to you -- that is to say, it Feels great, Plays great, is Comfortable for YOU, Sounds good, Looks great, You sense a "bond", etc. --

4) And remember, you can always sell it and buy another if you change your mind.

5) Keep checking out the AGF marketplace for some outstanding USED guitars, which offers tremendous value !

Best of luck with your search! HAVE FUN with it and know that you'll get some great, useful information from this AGF community.

Cheers!
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=