Price of Brazilian Rosewood guitars

[gitarro]

Originally Posted by SprintBob

Given how good our acoustic luthiers have become especially in producing guitars with amazing tonal signatures using woods other than BRW, I believe that could also be a factor in pricing for BRW (i.e. if demand goes down for it, pricing will start to drop).

I have played the guitars of one of the most respected luthiers in the world that were made of different back and side woods and the single one that was made of brazilian rosewood was far and away the best of all of them. The most skilled luthiers would know how to use braz to ts highest sonic potential. I suspect a lot of times when we encounter braz guitars that sounded mediocre, it is usually because it was made by a factory or was made by a lesser skilled or experienced luthier who did not know how to get the most out of that braz set. Admittedly there are also lesser braz sets as well but I suspect that the individual application and skill of the maker has at least as big an effect.

[kiva238]

Originally Posted by vintageom

I am in the camp that the "quality of the Brazilian" matters. I see MANY examples of Brazilian being used that is not quarter-sawn or even close to it, due to scarcity, dimensions and leftover pieces seeking a purpose. I see knot holes, and a lot of filler on some examples that would not have been used on a guitar many decades ago.

Non-quarter sawing can yield nice figuring and character under finish, but I am old school and have faith in the value and stability of quarter-sawn tone woods. I do not want the risk of buying a $8000 plus guitar with slab-sawn, knotty Brazilian and have it crack or separate down the road. That same perspective/view might be shared by others, which could affect the market values. Consumer opinions matter when it is their choice and their money.

I also see that lesser known brands with Brazilian take a huge hit at resale. Not that they are bad guitars, but a very large segment of buyers buy according to popular brand names and well known builders.

My final thought is that builders have gotten so good at making excellent sounding guitars with other tone woods that Brazilian is not the Holy Grail any longer, especially for the up charge $$$$$.

Couldn't agree more.
That's why the only sensible and safe BRW purchase at the moment might be an older Martin with some nice quartered wood. Luckily, these instruments are often very fine sounding.

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by gitarro

I have played the guitars of one of the most respected luthiers in the world that were made of different back and side woods and the single one that was made of brazilian rosewood was far and away the best of all of them. The most skilled luthiers would know how to use braz to ts highest sonic potential. I suspect a lot of times when we encounter braz guitars that sounded mediocre, it is usually because it was made by a factory or was made by a lesser skilled or experienced luthier who did not know how to get the most out of that braz set. Admittedly there are also lesser braz sets as well but I suspect that the individual application and skill of the maker has at least as big an effect.

gitarro...

Working with Brazilian Rosewood is not alchemy, no luthier is turning lead into gold, so to speak, working with braz. It is not an especially tricky wood to work with, other than it likes to crack for no apparent good reason sometimes.

Some of the best sounding guitars ever made with Braz, were in fact made by a factory, Martin, back in the 30's, and Martin wasn't voicing/tuning their tops either, so again, no alchemy going on in Nazareth, just good quality materials, and good skilled careful craftsmanship, by mostly nameless men who likely would never be regarded with the level of awe that certain current luthiers have attained. Yet, what those nameless craftsmen did is beyond repute as we have the guitars to prove the caliber of their work.

But the 30's D-18's they made, side by side with those magic braz D-28's sound just as good, and to some folks ears, better.

All of the luthiers I have talked to personally, and all of the interviews I have read of many others, when asked their views on guitar building and guitar tone, have always said that "the TOP is the voice of the guitar", and most of them have given a ratio of around 70/30 up to 90/10 with the top always being the higher number in the ratio of importance of the wood to the sound of the guitar.

And whenever we have a discussion thread out here on the forum about "what is the most important factor in the sound of the guitar, the top or the back/sides" besides members saying "the builder" instead, they still usually offer a similar ratio as the luthiers do, 70/30 to 90/10, again with the top being the primary determining factor in the tone of the guitar.

And yet, whenever we discuss Brazilian, it's like the ratio numbers are flipped, and people start implying that it is the braz that makes the lions share of the difference.

And that is just not true, and no luthier I know feels that way either.

The sonic properties of brazilian are well known, and certainly not mystical, magical, nor difficult to access when building a guitar. Braz has it's working tendencies, it's strengths and weaknesses that the luthier has to bear in mind as they work with it, but there is no mystery or secret handshake to unlocking the secrets of building with braz. It is does not require any more skill than any other back and side wood to bring forth it's tonal contribution of 10% to 30%...depending on the builders beliefs...of the total voice of the given instrument.

Brazilian Rosewood requires what ALL the other tonewoods used in the making of a given guitar require. Choosing good quality wood...of which supplies are limited but not impossible to find...and careful and considerate craftsmanship in the working of said wood...especially perhaps...the top tonewood...as it is the primary force in determining the voice of the guitar.


Put a bad top on "best of the best" Brazilian and you will still get a dud guitar, the braz is not going to save it...it doesn't have the power, the influence in the tone production process of the soundbox to do that. Without a great top, you just have pretty...and no luthier, no matter how skilled has the ability...or the alchemy...to overcome that basic reality.

Brazilian Rosewood is wonderful, but it doesn't make a better instrument than any other top quality back and side tonewood, because it isn't the back and side wood that is driving the tonal train here. Never is...never was...never will be.


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[Goodallboy]

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

gitarro...

Working with Brazilian Rosewood is not alchemy, no luthier is turning lead into gold, so to speak, working with braz. It is not an especially tricky wood to work with, other than it likes to crack for no apparent good reason sometimes.

Some of the best sounding guitars ever made with Braz, were in fact made by a factory, Martin, back in the 30's, and Martin wasn't voicing/tuning their tops either, so again, no alchemy going on in Nazareth, just good quality materials, and good skilled careful craftsmanship, by mostly nameless men who likely would never be regarded with the level of awe that certain current luthiers have attained. Yet, what those nameless craftsmen did is beyond repute as we have the guitars to prove the caliber of their work.

But the 30's D-18's they made, side by side with those magic braz D-28's sound just as good, and to some folks ears, better.

All of the luthiers I have talked to personally, and all of the interviews I have read of many others, when asked their views on guitar building and guitar tone, have always said that "the TOP is the voice of the guitar", and most of them have given a ratio of around 70/30 up to 90/10 with the top always being the higher number in the ratio of importance of the wood to the sound of the guitar.

And whenever we have a discussion thread out here on the forum about "what is the most important factor in the sound of the guitar, the top or the back/sides" besides members saying "the builder" instead, they still usually offer a similar ratio as the luthiers do, 70/30 to 90/10, again with the top being the primary determining factor in the tone of the guitar.

And yet, whenever we discuss Brazilian, it's like the ratio numbers are flipped, and people start implying that it is the braz that makes the lions share of the difference.

And that is just not true, and no luthier I know feels that way either.

The sonic properties of brazilian are well known, and certainly not mystical, magical, nor difficult to access when building a guitar. Braz has it's working tendencies, it's strengths and weaknesses that the luthier has to bear in mind as they work with it, but there is no mystery or secret handshake to unlocking the secrets of building with braz. It is does not require any more skill than any other back and side wood to bring forth it's tonal contribution of 10% to 30%...depending on the builders beliefs...of the total voice of the given instrument.

Brazilian Rosewood requires what ALL the other tonewoods used in the making of a given guitar require. Choosing good quality wood...of which supplies are limited but not impossible to find...and careful and considerate craftsmanship in the working of said wood...especially perhaps...the top tonewood...as it is the primary force in determining the voice of the guitar.


Put a bad top on "best of the best" Brazilian and you will still get a dud guitar, the braz is not going to save it...it doesn't have the power, the influence in the tone production process of the soundbox to do that. Without a great top, you just have pretty...and no luthier, no matter how skilled has the ability...or the alchemy...to overcome that basic reality.

Brazilian Rosewood is wonderful, but it doesn't make a better instrument than any other top quality back and side tonewood, because it isn't the back and side wood that is driving the tonal train here. Never is...never was...never will be.


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

If I were a more skilled AGF’er I would have just quoted your last paragraph. While most of the preceding statements were sound, you then injected a personal opinion that many respected builders don’t share. It should have came with an adequate qualifier based on the soundness of your previous statements.

[IndyHD28]

Originally Posted by UncleJesse

it does make me wonder where the market will be in 15 year's time.

LOL, the market will be flooded with high end, mint condition guitars coming out of boomer’s estate sales whose kids could care less about guitars and just want the cash.

[gitarro]

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

gitarro...

Working with Brazilian Rosewood is not alchemy, no luthier is turning lead into gold, so to speak, working with braz. It is not an especially tricky wood to work with, other than it likes to crack for no apparent good reason sometimes.

Some of the best sounding guitars ever made with Braz, were in fact made by a factory, Martin, back in the 30's, and Martin wasn't voicing/tuning their tops either, so again, no alchemy going on in Nazareth, just good quality materials, and good skilled careful craftsmanship, by mostly nameless men who likely would never be regarded with the level of awe that certain current luthiers have attained. Yet, what those nameless craftsmen did is beyond repute as we have the guitars to prove the caliber of their work.

But the 30's D-18's they made, side by side with those magic braz D-28's sound just as good, and to some folks ears, better.

All of the luthiers I have talked to personally, and all of the interviews I have read of many others, when asked their views on guitar building and guitar tone, have always said that "the TOP is the voice of the guitar", and most of them have given a ratio of around 70/30 up to 90/10 with the top always being the higher number in the ratio of importance of the wood to the sound of the guitar.

And whenever we have a discussion thread out here on the forum about "what is the most important factor in the sound of the guitar, the top or the back/sides" besides members saying "the builder" instead, they still usually offer a similar ratio as the luthiers do, 70/30 to 90/10, again with the top being the primary determining factor in the tone of the guitar.

And yet, whenever we discuss Brazilian, it's like the ratio numbers are flipped, and people start implying that it is the braz that makes the lions share of the difference.

And that is just not true, and no luthier I know feels that way either.

The sonic properties of brazilian are well known, and certainly not mystical, magical, nor difficult to access when building a guitar. Braz has it's working tendencies, it's strengths and weaknesses that the luthier has to bear in mind as they work with it, but there is no mystery or secret handshake to unlocking the secrets of building with braz. It is does not require any more skill than any other back and side wood to bring forth it's tonal contribution of 10% to 30%...depending on the builders beliefs...of the total voice of the given instrument.

Brazilian Rosewood requires what ALL the other tonewoods used in the making of a given guitar require. Choosing good quality wood...of which supplies are limited but not impossible to find...and careful and considerate craftsmanship in the working of said wood...especially perhaps...the top tonewood...as it is the primary force in determining the voice of the guitar.


Put a bad top on "best of the best" Brazilian and you will still get a dud guitar, the braz is not going to save it...it doesn't have the power, the influence in the tone production process of the soundbox to do that. Without a great top, you just have pretty...and no luthier, no matter how skilled has the ability...or the alchemy...to overcome that basic reality.

Brazilian Rosewood is wonderful, but it doesn't make a better instrument than any other top quality back and side tonewood, because it isn't the back and side wood that is driving the tonal train here. Never is...never was...never will be.


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

Martin factory in the 30s is cited very often but it does not prove your proposition imho. It is said that there are many 1930s Martin's that are not especially good but have high prices purely because of the cachet. Being a factory without individual voicing, it was purely random chance that decided if a particular Martin was a lemon or it was good. Over time attrition of time destroyed many of the lemons and those that were prized enough to be kept well usually were because they tended to be better.

As for the other maxim that the top provides most of the tone, that is true but it is the back that provides most of the character ot the tone when skilfully tuned with the top. So the back has a huge effect on the quality of tone that is produced and that's where braz comes in.

The oft repeated idea that there is nothing special about braz and it is just another tone wood is often offered imho simply because there is so little good braz left and they are very expensive and luthiers and guitsr companies need to sell guitars at the end of the day.

However many of the most famous luthiers will tell you that their favourite rosewood for back and sides is brazilian rosewood and that they prefer to build with it above others for tonal reasons.

As for my own small experience, the very best guitars I have ever played have ALL been made with eiher adi or euro spruce and braz rosewood.

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by IndyHD28

LOL, the market will be flooded with high end, mint condition guitars coming out of boomer’s estate sales whose kids could care less about guitars and just want the cash.

You are absolutely right Indy!!!!!!...well...but...maybe a few of the musical kids will care because they can use the money for upgraded recording software and inboard and outboard plug ins that can make any guitar, no matter how average, sound spectacular in the mix.

But basically, you are right on the money for 90% of us "Boomers" estate instruments.

There are gonna be some killer buys out there in the coming years...amazing guitars...but will there be enough of a market to absorb more than a fraction of the numbers of instruments that will come out.

Likely not, I fear...sadly...

duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[IndyHD28]

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

You are absolutely right but will there be enough of a market to absorb more than a fraction of the numbers of instruments that will come out.

Likely not, I fear...sadly...

duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

If you think through this, it has dire consequences for the manufacturers. They should be preparing for tough times during these high times (very hard to do as we have seen).

[Earl49]

I have never owned a BRW guitar, because I've never encountered one that justified the now exhorbitant upcharge. As Wade, Charles, and several others have pointed out, having Brazilian is not a guarantee of killer tone. That is especially true as the stock dwindles and lesser grade stump wood that would have been thrown away 30-40 years ago for guitars now gets used and commands a premium price. In fact I have played a custom BRW Taylor GS that was commissioned by Taylor Swift until she realized that it was impractical to take it on tour and across borders. She had another built using EIR to the same specs for the road.

I've played a number of BRW guitars and understand the superb tone that SOME can give. But if I am on the highway and limited to driving 75 mph, does it really matter if a fancy Ferrari or Porsche can do 200? It might matter to someone like Brian Sutton or Leo Kottke, but not for my playing.

[Audie]

Originally Posted by IndyHD28

LOL, the market will be flooded with high end, mint condition guitars coming out of boomer’s estate sales whose kids could care less about guitars and just want the cash.

LOL for sure. It is already happening.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by IndyHD28

If you think through this, it has dire consequences for the manufacturers. They should be preparing for tough times during these high times (very hard to do as we have seen).

At one time, there was considerable demand for buggy whips. Once the horse-drawn-carriage all but disappeared, there was very little demand for buggy whips and nearly every such manufacturer went out of business.

In its day, the lute was as popular an instrument as the guitar is today. Until it wasn't and it became extinct: no one (commercially) made lutes for close to 150 years.

It seems pretty clear that the future will bring a smaller demand for acoustic guitars than current production levels are providing. The writing is on the wall, but that doesn't - and shouldn't, necessarily - prevent manufacturers from producing to the current demand.

Originally Posted by Earl49

...if I am on the highway and limited to driving 75 mph, does it really matter if a fancy Ferrari or Porsche can do 200? It might matter to someone like Brian Sutton or Leo Kottke, but not for my playing.

For many, that is irrelevant. "Know thyself."

[Audie]

The guitar market overall has seen a decline. Acoustic are much stronger than electrics. That use to never be the case. While volume of new guitars is up, so is inventory in stores. Soon, we will see production back down. Not to get into the weeds. but the increased production is mostly in the overseas manufacturing of American brands. I really believe a balance is in the future, but not before some shake up in new inventory and the used market.

[Bruce Sexauer]

If you mention this thread, I will sell THIS at my current base price: no upcharge for the very nice set of BRW or the killer German spruce top. One week old and as good as my guitars get. After you receive it, I will expect you will want to say something in this thread to sway opinion toward BRW being in a class of its own. You will be right, but others will argue. Such is life.

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

If you mention this thread, I will sell THIS at my current base price: no upcharge for the very nice set of BRW or the killer German spruce top. One week old and as good as my guitars get. After you receive it, I will expect you will want to say something in this thread to sway opinion toward BRW being in a class of its own. You will be right, but others will argue. Such is life.

Bruce...

If some of us...myself included...arguing that Brazilian is not the absolute be all and end all of guitar back and side tonewood...has gotten you so interested, intrigued, and/or inflamed that you are willing to offer for sale, this absolutely amazing guitar, with truly stellar said Brazilian Rosewood, and equally truly stellar German Spruce, for your base price ONLY...NO UPCHARGE, then those of us whom have argued the unpopular line here, have achieved something wonderful in this thread, far greater than we ever could ever have hoped to otherwise.

GLWS

duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[gitarro]

Bruce, those are some fine woods - especially the braz which is truly a great set! What an offer!

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

If you mention this thread, I will sell THIS at my current base price: no upcharge for the very nice set of BRW or the killer German spruce top. One week old and as good as my guitars get. After you receive it, I will expect you will want to say something in this thread to sway opinion toward BRW being in a class of its own. You will be right, but others will argue. Such is life.