The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 01-16-2019, 09:12 AM
sergeko sergeko is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 14
Default bolt-on neck and action change question

With Taylor, the recommended way of changing the action is to change the neck angle by using 2 "shims", instead of shaving down the saddle and/or nut. Are there any other guitar makers using bolt-on necks where this also applies ? I'm thinking about Collings and Furch.
__________________
Taylor 312ce 12-fret V-class (2019)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-16-2019, 09:27 AM
vindibona1's Avatar
vindibona1 vindibona1 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Chicago- North Burbs, via Mexico City
Posts: 5,048
Default

I'm not sure about the other makers, but Taylor has a shim "system" that is very precise. FWIW, they don't patently say to use 2 shims. It all depends, and they have different shims of varying degrees. It's a great system, but is really best to have it done by a Taylor service center who has the shims and does this stuff all the time. Costs about $100.

I suppose you could shave the saddle if you wanted lower action, but in doing so you could potentially change the string break angle (though unlikely to be significant). But having said that, I wouldn't start shaving the original saddle, but buy a second saddle and fit it as desired. You can get bone saddles for $15, either bleached or unbleashed, wave or offset and then fit it to your guitar. Some folks, due to climate changes, have a winter saddle and a summer saddle.
__________________
Assuming is not knowing. Knowing is NOT Understanding. There is a difference between compassion and wisdom. Compassion cannot supplant wisdom. Wisdom cannot occur without understanding. FACTS DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS. Feelings alone often make for terrible decisions TIME DEFINES ALL THINGS.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-16-2019, 09:35 AM
merlin666 merlin666 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Canada Prairies
Posts: 2,433
Default

Wow, Taylor really wants their players to take off the neck for action changes? That seems like a complicated operation. Ovation has the approach the other way round. They use a bunch of shims under the saddle, so to lower the action simply remove shims, to increase action add some shims. Very easy and very reversible.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-16-2019, 09:49 AM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,791
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by merlin666 View Post
Wow, Taylor really wants their players to take off the neck for action changes? That seems like a complicated operation. Ovation has the approach the other way round. They use a bunch of shims under the saddle, so to lower the action simply remove shims, to increase action add some shims. Very easy and very reversible.
It's not just about action, it's also about neck angle. That said, I'd rather have a saddle making solid contact with the bridge than a saddle that has plastic shims under it. The Taylor system is excellent. It takes an experienced repair guy less than 10 minutes to reset the neck. I've only needed to have it done once, and that was because the factory setup was a little high for my liking. My tech did the adjustment while I was waiting. Super quick and super easy.
__________________
Jim
FOR SALE: 2002 Taylor 814ce Limited cocobolo/sitka spruce
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce


SoundCloud link
Spotify
YouTube
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-16-2019, 09:54 AM
sergeko sergeko is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 14
Default

I agree that the Taylor system is really excellent !

But I'm wondering whether other guitar builders, who are using bolt-on necks, are also recommending a similar technique (so without shaving the nut/saddle) to change the action/angle ?
__________________
Taylor 312ce 12-fret V-class (2019)
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-16-2019, 09:56 AM
fazool's Avatar
fazool fazool is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 14,949
Default

Action is more than just one geometry change.

Shaving/shimming a saddle is a shortcut method. If you only need a minor change the tradeoffs are minimal.
__________________
Fazool "The wand chooses the wizard, Mr. Potter"
Taylor GC7 | Taylor GS7 |Taylor GA3-12 | Taylor SB2-S |Taylor SB1-X |Ibanez AC-240
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-16-2019, 10:21 AM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Idaho
Posts: 7,816
Default

I don't believe that the other bolt-on builders do action adjustments by removing the neck. Taylor uses the two-shim NT system (patented so others cannot use it) including the fret board extension pocket.

If you need to do a neck reset on the typical standard bolt-on system, that involves shaving or sanding the heel of the neck slightly to change the neck angle. Shaving or shimming the saddle is far easier until you have to do major surgery - less intense than a dovetail reset but still not trivial. And many of them have the fret board extensions glued to the guitar top, complicating things.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-16-2019, 10:37 AM
Osage Osage is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 860
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by merlin666 View Post
Wow, Taylor really wants their players to take off the neck for action changes? That seems like a complicated operation.
It's not complicated at all. That's the beauty of it.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-16-2019, 10:49 AM
merlin666 merlin666 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Canada Prairies
Posts: 2,433
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osage View Post
It's not complicated at all. That's the beauty of it.
Ovations also have a bolt-on necks with shims, but I have never tried to take one off because the neck angle never needed to be changed on my Ovations. On the other hand if I change string gauge, or if the top has a slight change due to humidity variations, then all I have to do is pop out the saddle and add or remove a shim(s) and that's it. Why is there a need to change the neck angle with Taylors?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-16-2019, 10:54 AM
MC5C MC5C is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Tatamagouche Nova Scotia
Posts: 885
Default

Most bolt on neck situations are more than semi-permanent, and a neck reset needs actual resetting of the neck. The fretboard extension is often (normally) glued to the top. Finish is often sprayed after the neck is installed, so doing a reset involves cutting the finish and any remediation required. On those, a little bridge work is usually first in line, saddles are meant to be adjusted after all, often seasonally. When you do need a reset, it's not nearly as hard as re-cutting and shimming a dovetail joint, but neither is it 10 minutes work.
__________________
Brian Evans
1935 Dobro model 25 resonator
1943 Paramount (made by Kay) mandolin
1946 Epiphone Zephyr electric archtop
1957 Hofner Senator archtop
1962 Gibson Melody Maker electric
1963 National Dynamic lap steel
1996 Landola jumbo
1998 Godin Artisan TC electric
1998 Epiphone SG electric
2010 GoldTone PBR-CA resonator
2015 Evans electric archtop
2016 Evans archtop
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-16-2019, 11:02 AM
ChalkLitIScream ChalkLitIScream is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 924
Default

Furch and Bourgeois use a full bolt on system, with no glue involved.
__________________
The past: Yamaha AC3R (2016) Rose, Eastman AC822ce-FF (2018)
The present:Taylor 614-ce (2018) Clara, Washburn Dread (2012)
The future:Furch Rainbow GC-CR (2020)Renata?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-16-2019, 11:21 AM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,791
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by merlin666 View Post
Why is there a need to change the neck angle with Taylors?
For all the same reasons you might need to change the neck angle on any guitar. Taylor just makes it a lot easier to do. When my Martin needed a reset, it was in the shop for two weeks; the Taylor took 10 minutes.
__________________
Jim
FOR SALE: 2002 Taylor 814ce Limited cocobolo/sitka spruce
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce


SoundCloud link
Spotify
YouTube
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-16-2019, 11:22 AM
ChrisN ChrisN is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Seattle Area
Posts: 1,224
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sergeko View Post
I agree that the Taylor system is really excellent !

But I'm wondering whether other guitar builders, who are using bolt-on necks, are also recommending a similar technique (so without shaving the nut/saddle) to change the action/angle ?
The answer to your question is "no." Taylor's the only one doing it that way. I have 3 Taylors - I love it.

Other bolt-ons do it differently. I "believe" Bourgeois, while not using shims, has a nice system that doesn't require ungluing the fretboard (I reserve the right to be wrong - I never got an answer to my query to them).
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-16-2019, 11:32 AM
fazool's Avatar
fazool fazool is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 14,949
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisN View Post
The answer to your question is "no." Taylor's the only one doing it that way. I have 3 Taylors - I love it.

Other bolt-ons do it differently. I "believe" Bourgeois, while not using shims, has a nice system that doesn't require ungluing the fretboard (I reserve the right to be wrong - I never got an answer to my query to them).

This was a massive leap forward in guitar technology, as it eliminated the gluing and ungluing of the fretboard. A Bolt-on neck is great but if you have to unglue the fretboard sitll it's only half easier. Taylor added the calibrated shims to adjust neck angle and viola' they had their huge innovation.



Bourgeois uses a similar bolt-down fretboard extension but doesn't copy Taylor's patented neck shim idea.

__________________
Fazool "The wand chooses the wizard, Mr. Potter"
Taylor GC7 | Taylor GS7 |Taylor GA3-12 | Taylor SB2-S |Taylor SB1-X |Ibanez AC-240
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-16-2019, 11:38 AM
sergeko sergeko is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 14
Default

Nice pictures !

How does a neck reset for a Bourgeois work then if there are no shims ?
Do all Bourgeois guitars use this neck system ?
__________________
Taylor 312ce 12-fret V-class (2019)
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

Thread Tools



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=