Help me decide: Tonedexter or Voiceprint?

[Villamarzia]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

Hi Doug,

When I generated that Barbera IR for you with my generator your sample was just regular finger style playing and it worked fine. It is not, with what I know today, obvious to me why ToneDexter benefits from every other string training with that pickup (see my previous post). Have you tried training a ToneDexter lately with standard playing?

Thanks,
Jon

But Doug can play everything using only three strings and you’d never know, so how can you say he didn’t do it on your file?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

Hi Doug,

When I generated that Barbera IR for you with my generator your sample was just regular finger style playing and it worked fine. It is not, with what I know today, obvious to me why ToneDexter benefits from every other string training with that pickup (see my previous post). Have you tried training a ToneDexter lately with standard playing?

Thanks,
Jon

No, it's been a while now. My TD died recently, and I have yet to replace it - no gigs these days... If I recall correctly, what happened was that the training wouldn't progress, it just got stuck at step 1 or 2.

[James May]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

Hi Doug,

When I generated that Barbera IR for you with my generator your sample was just regular finger style playing and it worked fine. It is not, with what I know today, obvious to me why ToneDexter benefits from every other string training with that pickup (see my previous post). Have you tried training a ToneDexter lately with standard playing?

Thanks,
Jon

Perhaps I can shed a little light on this in layman's terms.

The IR that is being created during training is a complex filter that has both magnitude (peaks and dips in volume at different frequencies) and phase information (whether to push or pull at a given frequency).

When you use a pickup like the Barbera or Baggs LB6 with mixed polarity sensors, and you play all of them during training, you are giving the filter building algorithm mixed messages: push, no wait - pull, no no, I mean push, etc. The end result is that over time with a mix of push and pull signals, things tend to cancel out resulting in a weak and hollow sounding IR.

Earlier on, we used to have tighter controls on what we would allow the IR generator to accept as a contributor to the IR. Among other things, this would protect the user from the evils of mixed polarity pickups. This is most likely what Doug Young experienced.

For a while now, we've loosened the controls and in fact, a mixed polarity pickup will make it through training these days. But the results will be weak and hollow sounding. But this can be dangerous in a way

A case in point is when I went to give some assist to Lyle Lovett's guitar player Jeff White who loved his ToneDexter on mando but was getting weak and hollow sounding WaveMaps on his guitar that was equipped with - you guessed it - a mixed polarity pickup, a Baggs LB6. Once we retrained playing just the strings that were of the same polarity - goodness came back into the room. Here's the link about that:
https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=573383

As Jon has pointed out, don't expect anyone's IR generator to be able to get around the laws of physics. No matter what marketing departments will tell you, or not tell you.

[Akousticplyr]

Originally Posted by Villamarzia

I play fingerstyle, both steel and nylon, with various pickups (Barbera, Lyric, K&K) depending on the guitar. My rig is pretty simple: guitar - Sennheiser wireless system - a preamp of choice (I have a few) - Baggs reverb (fx loop, if present in the preamp). Finally, DI to the PA and line out to a powered Deadalus cabinet.

In the past I had some dual source system, pickup + mic, but I don't want to go back to feedback battles due to the mic, while I'd like to have more "mic-ish" sound quality. Therefore I am considering swapping my preamps for an IR based one and I selected either the Tonedexter and the Voiceprint.

While I have some quality small condenser mic at hand (AKG P170), which I could use with the TD, I fancy the simplicity of the VPDI. I also like the EQ possibilities of the latter. So, I am more inclined to go with a VPDI, even if I am pretty aware that possibly the TD gives a better representation of my guitars' natural voice.

Price-wise they are both super expensive in EU. Around 600USD each. Auch!

Is there any consideration, based on your experience, I should be aware of, before deciding? What would you decide, mainly for live use? and why?

Thanks folks!

PS: in the past I've had an HX stomp and a Nux Optima Air. I did't bond with either. I've found the HX Stomp too "digital", too many options to play with and I ended up loosing more time to create presets than play, while I've found the Optima not sounding that good versus a good pickup into a good preamp.

I'd recommend trying both (if you can find a retailer with a risk free return policy).

I have a Helix, tried the Optima Air and returned it, and will be gigging tomorrow night with the Voiceprint.

So far, I like it's simplicity and app control as well as the obvious reason- I'm happy with the tones I'm getting.

I have never (though probably should've tried) a Tonedexter so I can't speak to that.

I don't think you can go wrong either way based on the positive feedback I've read about both.

[stringbound]

Originally Posted by Villamarzia

Why do you think that a Lyric works better with the VPDI than the TD? ItÂ’s a natural assumption based on the manufacturer, but IÂ’d like to educate myself more on IR and get the reasons behind.

The Tonedexter was made to make a piezo pickup sound more natural and microphone like. Audio Sprockets says that the Lyric is a microphone and thus doesn't work to well with the Tonedexter. You can find the info on the Tonedexter website, where using the Lyric isn't recommendet. LR Baggs on the other hand claims that the Voiceprint is working with all their pickups, even microphones or magnetic pickups.

From the Audio Sprockets website:

Guitar pickups that can work with caveats
LR Baggs Lyric – sound-board mic, active, with volume control. Has some non-linear compression that hampers the ability to train optimally. Some users have reported success, some have had problems. Not recommended.

https://www.audiosprockets.com/support/pickup-guidance/

[jonfields45]

The latest ToneDexter firmware gives the "character" knob an extra feature where it can leverage a pair of IRs. One for low frequencies (lushness but feedback provoking) and one for high frequencies (dequacking). It allows you to pull back on the lushness while retaining 100% of the dequack. This is a really cool feature.

ToneDexter does not off load the math heavy lifting to your phone and can real time in your pedal at the direction of firmware do this kind of trick and others yet to be discovered by their developers. The Wavemap stored by ToneDexter is dramatically larger than just a simple IR (my generator's IR's are, 2048 16 bit samples, or 4K bytes, and that is the limit of almost all IR loaders). They've got capability in hardware and stored IR data that probably has not been fully tapped.

This fundamental design decision to keep the IR generation in the pedal, to store more data than just an IR, plus a no compromise physical pedal design, is why I feel ToneDexter is a better choice.

[aaronmarkson]

No matter what a company says or what it looks like on paper, it always comes down to what sounds best in the context that it’s being used.

The tricky part with recommendations, is that we all want something slightly different.

Knowing you plan on using this live impacts what might work best. It’s been my experience that a full IR isn’t my cup of tea in a live environment. In this case, the way in which it blends with your pickup is really important to me.

If you will be using it for recording or streaming direct, then the sound of the full IR sound becomes more important.

Also pickup compatibility is important too. Despite the theories that they should both work the same, this isn’t always the case with gear.

I’m my very limited time trying out both of these products to make the same decision, I have found that the voiceprint works better with the Anthem than the Tonedexter.

And the Tonedexter creates an IR that sounds better at full blend with very little eq needed. The voiceprints I’ve made have required quite a bit of eq in the low and low mids. Thankfully, the app allows for this.

I am not yet to the place where I have made my decision, so I can only recommend that you try both out too!

I bought my Tonedexter used and should be able to recoup all or most of my money should I decide to sell it. I assume we’ll start seeing used voiceprints for sale too. I’m personally willing to lose a little money to try them both and feel confident that I have the product that works best for me. Everybody is in a different financial situation, so that may not be in the cards, but if it’s possible, that would be my recommendation.

[Voxbox30]

Here's a thought - does the Voiceprint still work when your iPhone is switched off?

I was burnt recently when I bought an Audiolab hifi streamer that relied on the phone, which I thought was used as a control interface, where in fact the streamed audio either from the internet or network server is actually streamed through the phone.

So, does the Voiceprint change its settings at all or even stop working if your phone is off?

Cheers, Colin

[thirdie2002]

Originally Posted by Voxbox30

Here's a thought - does the Voiceprint still work when your iPhone is switched off?



I was burnt recently when I bought an Audiolab hifi streamer that relied on the phone, which I thought was used as a control interface, where in fact the streamed audio either from the internet or network server is actually streamed through the phone.



So, does the Voiceprint change its settings at all or even stop working if your phone is off?



Cheers, Colin

The phone is only needed when making the voiceprint. Other than that, you can use the pedal all by itself. If you wanna make eq changes though you need to open your phone.

[Voxbox30]

Originally Posted by thirdie2002

The phone is only needed when making the voiceprint. Other than that, you can use the pedal all by itself. If you wanna make eq changes though you need to open your phone.

Ok thanks that’s good! I’m currently trying out a Tonedexter and I’d like to try a Voiceprint too. Total dependence on an iPhone would have been a dealbreaker.

[YamaYairi]

I know this is a year old thread but I am trying to decide between the Tonedexter and the Voiceprint. I have excellent recording mics I could use with the Tonedexter to create the IR, but for the Voiceprint I have a Samsung Android phone. The Androids are now supported for the Voiceprint but I am wondering if the mic in the phone would give me a crappy recording of my guitar?

[YamahaGuy]

Originally Posted by YamaYairi

I know this is a year old thread but I am trying to decide between the Tonedexter and the Voiceprint. I have excellent recording mics I could use with the Tonedexter to create the IR, but for the Voiceprint I have a Samsung Android phone. The Androids are now supported for the Voiceprint but I am wondering if the mic in the phone would give me a crappy recording of my guitar?

With the right cable [USB - B to USB - c], a USB mixer can be patched into your android phone. I've done it. So if you have a USB mixer and get the cable that goes from the mixer to USB-c (your phone) you're good to go. Plus, it seems that Tonedexter units are no longer available most places and Reverb sellers are asking astronomical prices in some cases.

[YamaYairi]

Originally Posted by YamahaGuy

With the right cable [USB - B to USB - c], a USB mixer can be patched into your android phone. I've done it. So if you have a USB mixer and get the cable that goes from the mixer to USB-c (your phone) you're good to go. Plus, it seems that Tonedexter units are no longer available most places and Reverb sellers are asking astronomical prices in some cases.

Thanks for that. I think my Behringer mixer has usb, but if not I have some audio interfaces with mic preamps. The main reason I was debating is the Voiceprint is about $100 cheaper.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by YamaYairi

I know this is a year old thread but I am trying to decide between the Tonedexter and the Voiceprint. I have excellent recording mics I could use with the Tonedexter to create the IR, but for the Voiceprint I have a Samsung Android phone. The Androids are now supported for the Voiceprint but I am wondering if the mic in the phone would give me a crappy recording of my guitar?

I haven't tried the Voiceprint with Android, but in general, the understandable idea that a "better" mic will produce better results with either ToneDexter or Voiceprint is debatable at best. You are not recording your guitar, you're giving it a signal to analyze and learn from. With ToneDexter, different people have preferred different (not necessarily "better") mics. Molly Tuttle uses an SM57. Someone here on AGF liked the Behringer measurement mic (which is not a mic that sounds "good" in the usual sense). I also tried training with my Brauners ($6K mic), it didn't do as well as more basic mics.

I tried a variety of mics with the Voiceprint, and got no better results than with the phone. Baggs has incorporated the characteristics of the phone mics in their training, so it's at least possible that the phone mic is the best bet - because the training software knows what it's working with. Presumably they have done the same with the Android version.

[YamaYairi]

Thanks, guys. After verifying that my phone is compatible with the app, I ordered the Voiceprint. I like the flexibility of the EQ that I saw on Teja Gerken's demo. Also, who knows if or when the Tonedexter will be in stock. The website says that no dealers have stock and they can't make any because they can't get the chips. Looking forward to trying this out!