L50, L50 and archtops generally

[L50EF15]

'lo all. I just signed up. Looks like I came to the right place!

As you can tell from my username, I have a Gibson L50 archtop. I love this guitar (my favorite, no question, but I still have and still love my first real guitar, an '84 Yamaha Eterna EF-15). Today, I got to try out its distant ancestor, an early roundhole L50 from 1933. A very different but gorgeous sound - similar to a 000 with more presence. It looks like a small J45.

I shouldn't have played it. Now I have the sound stuck in my ear, with visions of matching it with my '60 f-hole version in my head.

I've noticed that most people here seem to be flattop players. How many of you play archtops? I've found that I can cover a lot of sonic ground with mine. It's a very versatile guitar. And have any of you tried a round or oval hole archtop?

Rudy

P.S. I have a review of the L50 over on Harmony Central if you want to read about it. And some suggested listening for those unfamiliar with the versatility of archtops, track down a copy of "Eddie Lang, Carl Kress, Dick McDonough: Pioneers of Jazz Guitar 1927 - 1939". Brilliant stuff.

R.

[bohemian]

I like and play archtops.

I had an L-50 back around 1964.. liked it very much and regret the sale.

Archtops are underappreciated, often because they are played differently than flattops.. and few folks spend enough time with them to get familiar.

I think they are more elegant and versatile than flattops.

Have you visted archtops.com ?

[WordMan]

Originally Posted by L50EF15

'lo all. I just signed up. Looks like I came to the right place!

As you can tell from my username, I have a Gibson L50 archtop. I love this guitar (my favorite, no question, but I still have and still love my first real guitar, an '84 Yamaha Eterna EF-15). Today, I got to try out its distant ancestor, an early roundhole L50 from 1933. A very different but gorgeous sound - similar to a 000 with more presence. It looks like a small J45.

I shouldn't have played it. Now I have the sound stuck in my ear, with visions of matching it with my '60 f-hole version in my head.

I've noticed that most people here seem to be flattop players. How many of you play archtops? I've found that I can cover a lot of sonic ground with mine. It's a very versatile guitar. And have any of you tried a round or oval hole archtop?

Rudy

P.S. I have a review of the L50 over on Harmony Central if you want to read about it. And some suggested listening for those unfamiliar with the versatility of archtops, track down a copy of "Eddie Lang, Carl Kress, Dick McDonough: Pioneers of Jazz Guitar 1927 - 1939". Brilliant stuff.

R.

I love that CD - the tracks where Lang and Kress play together are just monstrously good. Lang, before Charlie Christian and others, really brought the guitar to the front of the band and deserves a lot more recognition.

I played two round-hold L-50's at RetroFret in Brooklyn a week ago - fun guitars. I also played their L-48 and L-50. I have always circled archtops and would love to sound decent on one. I think I may have found one that is perfect for me, but am working out the particulars. If I can make it work, I will post about it here or in a new thread

[Iwasonlyhuman]

Originally Posted by bohemian

Archtops are underappreciated, often because they are played differently than flattops.. and few folks spend enough time with them to get familiar.

I fall into this camp. I love the look and admire anyone who plays them effectively, but I myself don't have the talent or patience to learn.

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by L50EF15

'lo all. I just signed up. Looks like I came to the right place!

As you can tell from my username, I have a Gibson L50 archtop. I love this guitar (my favorite, no question, but I still have and still love my first real guitar, an '84 Yamaha Eterna EF-15). Today, I got to try out its distant ancestor, an early roundhole L50 from 1933. A very different but gorgeous sound - similar to a 000 with more presence. It looks like a small J45.

I shouldn't have played it. Now I have the sound stuck in my ear, with visions of matching it with my '60 f-hole version in my head.

I've noticed that most people here seem to be flattop players. How many of you play archtops? I've found that I can cover a lot of sonic ground with mine. It's a very versatile guitar. And have any of you tried a round or oval hole archtop?

Rudy

P.S. I have a review of the L50 over on Harmony Central if you want to read about it. And some suggested listening for those unfamiliar with the versatility of archtops, track down a copy of "Eddie Lang, Carl Kress, Dick McDonough: Pioneers of Jazz Guitar 1927 - 1939". Brilliant stuff.

R.

Hi Rudy,
My main bottleneck guitar is a 1927 Gibson L-5, basically like the ones Carl Kress, Eddie Lang, et al played.

I have played many round hole Gibson archtops over the years and they are all over the map. The main problem for flat top players is that people try to get the same aural results from an archtop, and it ain't gonna happen.

It's like trying to get your new spouse to act like the one who divorced you.

It's a different animal altogether, so embrace it.

The slide that comes in after the second verse is my L-5 overdubbed after my Guild F-212

http://www.myspace.com/music/player?sid=16886858&ac=now

HE

[mr. beaumont]

I'm an archtop player, both amplified and often unamplified too. I use a Heritage 575 for plugged in work (solid maple, great for electric work) and I have a rather inexpensive but cool Loar LH-600, solid spruce over solid maple, which is a great "poor man's L5."

I play a lot of flattop at home too, but there's something special about an archtop...a different sound, not better, but very different.

[WordMan]

Archtops clearly have a different tone profile. I have been trying to find one that felt/sounded "strummable" enough that it would overlap enough with the sound in my head that it wouldn't scare me off, and would support my tentative steps into Archtop Land.

Howard, one observation/question: you play slide on your L-5. Why, to your knowledge, isn't that more common? Taking your example, as I have been checking out potential archtops for myself, I have tried playing slide on some. And on some of them, it sounds awesome! The neck angle and bridge design on archtops give the strings a bit of "bounce" which is great to play slide on. And archtops were striving for a loud, cutting tone in a similar way, and in the same era, as resonators, so is it any surprise that their tone might respond to slide really well? You certainly think so, Howard - but why aren't archtops used more commonly for slide? They can sound great!

My working assumption is that high-end archtops were too pricey for bluesmen/sliders and most folks simply don't associate slide with archtops. But there were dirt-cheap archtops back in the day, too...

[mr. beaumont]

I think some of the old blues guys did play archtops. A plywood archtop is a great blues guitar.

I'd imagine something like an L5 was out of reach for many, and too fancy anyway. But the sound sure would have worked--an L5 is loud!

It's funny, because the archtop wasn't invented as a "jazz" guitar but it sure became one.

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by WordMan

Archtops clearly have a different tone profile. I have been trying to find one that felt/sounded "strummable" enough that it would overlap enough with the sound in my head that it wouldn't scare me off, and would support my tentative steps into Archtop Land.

Howard, one observation/question: you play slide on your L-5. Why, to your knowledge, isn't that more common? Taking your example, as I have been checking out potential archtops for myself, I have tried playing slide on some. And on some of them, it sounds awesome! The neck angle and bridge design on archtops give the strings a bit of "bounce" which is great to play slide on. And archtops were striving for a loud, cutting tone in a similar way, and in the same era, as resonators, so is it any surprise that their tone might respond to slide really well? You certainly think so, Howard - but why aren't archtops used more commonly for slide? They can sound great!

My working assumption is that high-end archtops were too pricey for bluesmen/sliders and most folks simply don't associate slide with archtops. But there were dirt-cheap archtops back in the day, too...

My particular guitar was built as a tenor, but was factory re-necked as a 6 string, in 1933. It, therefore, has a lighter, divergent, bracing than if it had been made as a 6 string to start with. For this reason it's got a lot more of what flat tops have while still having the punch of an archtop.

I think what Jeff is saying is the crux of the matter: Price. Couple that with human beings and flock mentality: If everyone else is using a flat top to play the blues, then I ain't gonna be no different!

I have always thought outside the box, so it doesn't seem odd to me. I've had this guitar since the mid 1970's.

John Monteleone 'blames me' (and another friend, Billy McEwan who played a 1928 L-5 for ragtime and fingerstyle) for opening his eyes to archtops being far more versatile instruments. I'm happy to take responsibility for that:-)

HE
It Ain't Necessarily So: http://howardemerson.com/music2.html

[Glennwillow]

This discussion is killing me... I have been lusting after some archtop guitars lately, and you guys are not helping!

Just kidding of course!

To L50EF15 -- welcome to the AGF! What a great discussion!

I do have to say that I have always been fascinated with the sound Howard Emerson has been able to get out of his old L5. I don't think I realized that it was originally built as a tenor guitar before. What a cool story...

- Glenn

[WordMan]

Thanks Howard - I knew yours was a converted Tenor, but hadn't considered the possibility that it was built/braced differently. That makes sense.

I am looking for what you describe: a "divergent" archtop. Sounds great when played for "standard archtop" type music, but a bit more open in sound, so it supports other styles, too. I bet an archtop's ability to do excellent slide might be part of the criteria for such a guitar. Glad I followed your inspiration and check out the archtops I try this way.

[jpbat]

Ah ! Archtops are an acquired taste, but as soon as you got it...
You won't find a lot of archtops lovers here, but those few are real fans.

I'm a beginner in that field (only two archtops to date, but I bought a Macaferri years ago, not an *archtop* per se, but the same kind of response under the fingers), I don't play much of my flat tops these days (and I'm blessed with *great* flat tops in my rack)

Hooked on archtops and resonators now.

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by WordMan

Thanks Howard - I knew yours was a converted Tenor, but hadn't considered the possibility that it was built/braced differently. That makes sense.

I am looking for what you describe: a "divergent" archtop. Sounds great when played for "standard archtop" type music, but a bit more open in sound, so it supports other styles, too. I bet an archtop's ability to do excellent slide might be part of the criteria for such a guitar. Glad I followed your inspiration and check out the archtops I try this way.

The term 'divergent', as in divergent-lines, is referring to the bracing, meaning that it was not parallel bracing, as was common. Later they started using X bracing.

I'm not trying to dissuade you, but I'll say this: I've played many 16" Gibson L-5's, including 3-4 Lloyd Loar examples, and none of them sounded like mine.

That said, every guitar has a voice, and it's the player's job to ask what can be gotten from a given instrument. More to the point: The player needs to have the ability to get the potential out of it.

It's like that thread that's asking about a 'deep, tight, bass': Most of that has way more to do with the player (plus what and how the string is being struck, muted or not, etc) than the guitar.

I get the impression that you're open minded, and adventurous, and that's a good thing. Make sure you've got some different weight slides, glass and metal, when trying these things out, and you'll really get a good sense of what can be wrought.

Regards,
Howard
It Ain't Necessarily So: http://howardemerson.com/music2.html

[WordMan]

All good. I hadn't understood your use of the word divergent.

I am enjoying my search - we'll see what I come across

[brad4d8]

I have several archtops, but don't play them as much as I'd like due to time constraints and the fact that my current group really needs a flattop (folkie trio). Although, I do have a 1930s Metro-B that needs a neck reset that has a nice almost David Rawlings sound to it. When I do have the time, I work on swing style rhythm guitar on either my Artist Award or a Korean Epi Howard Roberts Custom. Boy, the AA almost begs for four to the bar comping...
Also have a Guild X-170, all maple laminate that is really just an electric archtop, nice, though.
Brad