Help with possible dual source setup

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by bicko19

Out of curiosity, would it be possible to use my Pod HD500 as a preamp for the Trinity or would it not be able to power the mic?

Hi bicko...

No phantom power.

Out of curiosity, why would you go to the trouble of equipping your acoustic to sound as realistic as possible, and then play through a POD?

[WPTS]

Hey there, i actually run a dual source system with a Dimarzio black angel and k&k fantastick UST through a Grace Felix. I occasionally run the pure mini with either of the 2 as well since its also installed. When both pickups are in phase on a 50/50 mix i also have an attenuated B-C note on the low E string,(i'm also tuned 1/2 step down). This is also consistent with the K&k pure mini in normal phase, or the black angel by itself, and even the es1v3, if i remember correctly when it was in my taylor.
Now, If i reverse the phase on one source i seem to lose my bottom end(even when isolating each pickup seperately), and also the now resonant note changes, I believe to an E note played on the A string, and/or B note on the D string. So with what i believe is in phase for both pickups running dual source, i just use the HPF on the Felix around 125hz, typically for both pickups but it varies.

Anyone can def chime in here with any phase experiences/info!!

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by WPTS

Hey there, i actually run a dual source system with a Dimarzio black angel and k&k fantastick UST through a Grace Felix.

Hi WPTs

I think the most important two words in that sentence are

GRACE FELIX


I think running a Grace Felix one's odds of dialing in natural sounding guitar tone with a great variety of pickups, mics etc. would be possible.

[WPTS]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi WPTs

I think the most important two words in that sentence are

GRACE FELIX


I think running a Grace Felix one's odds of dialing in natural sounding guitar tone with a great variety of pickups, mics etc. would be possible.

Hey there, its def had its headaches but most def an upgrade from what i had. Proper eq is crucial and can def vary. I actually haven't ran the pure mini/black angel combo live yet, I've been enjoying the presence from the ust with the mag.

[Doug Young]

Any time you combine 2 different sound sources, there's going to be phase interaction. Part of the appeal of dual source systems is that you get more complexity in your sound, part of which comes from more complex phase behavior (our guitar tops vibrate with all kinds of phase variations - you can find some simulations and so on out there). What phase interaction does is cause some frequencies to be enhanced, others to be decreased, in a complex way. It's pretty hard to predict whether any particular interaction will be pleasing or not. So this comes with the territory any time you start building out your own system, combining parts that weren't designed together. Your results may vary. You may find a magic combo, or it may totally not work.

At one point I used a phase adjuster (Radial Phazor) in one of my dual source rigs. It allowed me to adjust the phase of one pickup, essentially acting like a complex tone control. Ultimately I dropped that, it was just overkill. If two pickups didn't work well together, I tried something else.

Generally, I've had the best luck with pickups that are so uncorrelated that "phase" isn't really a part of the equation. A Mag and SBT are quite different, for example. The note attack even seems to occur at different times. There's "phase" involved, but the sounds are so different, I usually don't find that they cancel, tho some do. An SBT and UST on the other hand are more similar, probably because they are picking up the sound from about the same location, and will tend (to my ear) to not complement each other as well, and they can cancel out quite a bit with phase.

I almost always use a pickup+mic, in part because the mic usually ends up being totally uncorrelated to the pickup, so you don't get phase issues as much. Also I usually apply a high pass filter to the mic, so that the fundamental frequencies aren't there - which is where you are most likely to hear the kinds of issues you describe. By just using the mic's highs, it adds "air" without introducing phase issues.

How'd you find a 6 year old thread to jump into? :-)

[WPTS]

Hey Doug, thanks for such excellent info... i did lots of research before i got the k&k powermix system installed. The pure mini is also installed and could be swapped for the ust at any time. I'm guessing id be treating the eq of the pure mini similar to your mic eq, HPF at at least 100-125hz and let the pure mini provide that bit of body, dynamic attach and that bit of texture come through.
Mag pickups alone have felt floppy to me at times as i am mainly a percussive strummer. I have played a m1 passive, sunrise, rare earth, and black angel.

[TubeG]

On the KK trinity, does anyone know if the 9V is supplied to the Tip or the RING of the TRS jack?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by TubeG

On the KK trinity, does anyone know if the 9V is supplied to the Tip or the RING of the TRS jack?

Ring. Tho I think with the K&K stuff, it's 5 volts to work with their Silver Bullet. That's probably adequate, tho not ideal, for other mics as well.

All dual source preamps I know of send the power on the ring, except for Grace Felix which lets you configure where you want the power. There could be other exceptions, but that's the norm.

[TubeG]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Ring. Tho I think with the K&K stuff, it's 5 volts to work with their Silver Bullet. That's probably adequate, tho not ideal, for other mics as well.

All dual source preamps I know of send the power on the ring, except for Grace Felix which lets you configure where you want the power. There could be other exceptions, but that's the norm.

Thanks for that info, other questions, what are the outputs on the Tip and on the RING? it is only the MIX output on the TIP or have two individual outputs on the TIP and RING?

[Doug Young]

If wired as I described, the K&K signal comes out the tip, the mic comes out the ring. Separate signals. You need to send that to a blender (such as the K&K Quantum, Grace Felix, etc) that has 2 channels (and provides the power on the ring). There, you can blend and EQ each source to taste.

[TubeG]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

If wired as I described, the K&K signal comes out the tip, the mic comes out the ring. Separate signals. You need to send that to a blender (such as the K&K Quantum, Grace Felix, etc) that has 2 channels (and provides the power on the ring). There, you can blend and EQ each source to taste.

any cheaper solution other then K&K and Grace Felix for blending the signals? can it be done by a mixer instead? is the TIP line level output?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by TubeG

any cheaper solution other then K&K and Grace Felix for blending the signals? can it be done by a mixer instead? is the TIP line level output?

There are around a dozen 2-channel preamps with support for a mic out there. Someone posted a list a while back, but I can't locate it right now. Search on the forum and you'll get lots of hits. The cheapest option is probably the Bagg MixPro.

Can you just plug into a mixer? Yes and no. The K&K can plug into a mixer that has a high impedance input, and some people find it works. My experience is that it doesn't sound very good. At the very least, you need a DI (can be had for $30). The K&K isn't "line level", it's "pickup level", which is close to mic-level. But you want to be dual source, so you need to be able to plug the mic in as well, and power the mic. An internal guitar mic, wired this way, does not use true "phantom power" (even tho some preamps confusingly call it that). It's a different powering scheme - just like both your toaster and flashlight use "electricity", but you can't interchange them. There are adaptors - hard to find - or if you understand some electronics you could build one. But all in all, trying to kludge together a K&K+mic system with a mixer will be somewhat complicated and may or may not work well. In contrast, with the correct gear, it's simple and just works. My advice is to get a decent preamp meant to support this setup, or skip the mic until you can afford the correct setup.