Rosewood vs Mohagany for Individual vs ensemble playing

[OjaiAndrew]

Ok, so I don't want to start another thread on which is better - Rosewood or Mohagany - I know that one's been beaten to death.

But I do want to know how you perceive the differences between the two tone woods for individual or solo playing vs. playing in a group situation. I've been thinking that Rosewood has such a lovely, rich and warm tone when by myself, but playing with others mahogany seems to have a clarity that cuts through the mix very well.

Is this your perception or do you see it differently. I have several guitar of each tone wood and vacillate back and forth between what I want to play on any given day.

[Wade Hampton]

Andrew, I agree with your analysis as to how those woods can work in an ensemble setting. One of the reasons I have several instruments with walnut backs and sides is because walnut seems to cut through a mix better than anything else. (Well, maybe not more than maple - maple is the all-time champ in that regard.)

But, yes, the overtones created by rosewood instruments can blend in, while the cleaner tonal profile of mahogany will tend to cut through. A lot has to do with personal playing styles and other factors will come into it, too, but as a general rule I think that's true.


Wade Hampton Miller

[jaymarsch]

I think that it depends on the style of music that you are playing as well as people's individual attack and style of playing their instrument - picks vs fingers for example. Seems like a variety of things can come into play. It may be another one of those things that you might not know until you try out some combinations. I think that playing with others is a whole different sensibility in terms of not getting in each other's way and enhancing what each is bringing musically to the table.

Best,
Jayne

[zmf]

Originally Posted by jaymarsch

I think that it depends on the style of music that you are playing as well as people's individual attack and style of playing their instrument -

+1
For solo, what a jazz musician might prefer will be different from a bluegrasser, or a DADGAD Celtic artist.

But your point does make sense in terms of one instrument not filling up too much sonic space in an ensemble venue.

My $0.02.

[roylor4]

I think your perceptions match mine. For fast, Bluegrass-ish type playing (think Americana on speed) the clarity, cut of Spruce/Hog or even Spruce/Lam performs better for me than Spruce/RW.

For slow solo stuff I like the overtones and lushness of RW, although I don't currently have a RW guitar - mostly because it doesn't fit my playing style..

[SKYHIGH]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Andrew, I agree with your analysis as to how those woods can work in an ensemble setting. One of the reasons I have several instruments with walnut backs and sides is because walnut seems to cut through a mix better than anything else. (Well, maybe not more than maple - maple is the all-time champ in that regard.)

But, yes, the overtones created by rosewood instruments can blend in, while the cleaner tonal profile of mahogany will tend to cut through. A lot has to do with personal playing styles and other factors will come into it, too, but as a general rule I think that's true.


Wade Hampton Miller

Hi Wade,

In your experience, do walnut cut thru the mix better than Koa? I ask since you had mentioned on other thread your preference for Koa in general. My walnut experience is limited but Koa/Sitka Martin is one of the best “cut thru” guitar I have played.

Cheers!

[AcousticDreams]

I agree with you, Wade. and others, that in general t mahogany cuts through as compared to Rosewood. Also mentioned how Walnut and Maple cut through. Some of my favorite songs on the 50's and 60's were recorded with big bodied maple guitars.

With that being said, there are a couple of species of rosewoods with more fundamental tones and can cut through much better than Typical Indian Rosewood or Brazilian.

There is also Certain species of spruce, such as High altitude European Spruce, that seemingly has a more fundamental basis. It is also possible that part of the allure of Baked Adi tops are that it brings out fundamentals as well.

Mahogany is known for its Midrange boost. In recording is it well known that mids help an instrument stand out. Rosewoods typically have a midrange dip. Maple, Koa, Walnut and Cocobolo have a flat graph.

And it is certainly possible for the custom Luthier to orient any given species of wood to produce more fundamentals regardless of species using his design and bracing patterns.

And lastly let us not forget Body shape. The popularity of smaller bodied guitars, even with rosewoods can be known to cut through due to their better balance. They just might not have the volume to cut through in a live jam(but some do). In recording, a smaller bodied Rosewood can cut through.

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by SKYHIGH

Hi Wade,

In your experience, do walnut cut thru the mix better than Koa? I ask since you had mentioned on other thread your preference for Koa in general. My walnut experience is limited but Koa/Sitka Martin is one of the best “cut thru” guitar I have played.

Cheers!

I own both walnut guitars and walnut mountain dulcimers, all with spruce tops, and also those same instruments with koa backs and sides. I tend to gravitate to the koa instruments for solo performances, because they’re a bit richer and “fatter” sounding, and to the walnut examples when playing with other musicians. Because they cut through so clearly.

Naturally, exceptions abound: the main time I use my koa baritone guitar is when I’m leading the music group at church, and sometimes the main reason I grab a particular instrument on any given occasion is that it has strings in better condition than some of the others! So there are no hard and fast rules, and I do play koa instruments with ensembles and walnut ones solo.

But as a general rule, for me it’s koa for solo gigs and walnut for ensemble work.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by OjaiAndrew

Ok, so I don't want to start another thread on which is better - Rosewood or Mohagany - I know that one's been beaten to death.

But I do want to know how you perceive the differences between the two tone woods for individual or solo playing vs. playing in a group situation. I've been thinking that Rosewood has such a lovely, rich and warm tone when by myself, but playing with others mahogany seems to have a clarity that cuts through the mix very well.

Is this your perception or do you see it differently. I have several guitar of each tone wood and vacillate back and forth between what I want to play on any given day.

I have very similar guitars by the same maker (Collings) in both rosewood and Mahogany over Sitka.

It IS true the rosewood provides a more complex sound, and Mahogany a simpler more direct tone, frankly it doesn't really matter much.

When I played in my last bluegrass band with a traditional line up I preferred my newer mahogany guitar because it cut through the overall sound well.

However the most famous bluegrass band guitarists played rosewood guitars.

When I play solo - I'll tend to use my EIR backed instrument, but if I chose differently no-one else would notice a difference.

A good guitar is a good guitar, but a good cigar is a smoke. That's all - smoke if you got 'em

(OK - for the record - I don't smoke!)

[FrankHudson]

As if often the case, Wade pretty much sums things up, and while I don't know if it's been said, we're all talking tendencies, not hard-and-fast rules.

I'm only going to add one fuzzy note. It also depends what you are trying to cut through (what is the rest of the ensemble, and what range of their instruments are they playing) and what are you, the guitarist playing note and range-wise.

For example we often tend to think in terms of bluegrass or an Americana/Folk group in these discussion. I used to play on stage with a pounding piano player. I now sometimes compose pieces with orchestra instrument string or woodwind instruments. Different needs in playing in those to contexts.

As what range you're playing makes a difference. Bluegrass ensembles often have bass string runs played by guitar. So the tendencies for clearer bass for mahogany or the bigger bass of rosewood might come into play, but many would lean to the cut of 'hog or even maple or walnut if there's too much else going on with fast or busy arrangements to hear richness or overtones. But the guitar's bass register has to have some volume in attack and amplitude in that context. However, when I played acoustic guitar with the pounding piano player, the bass and midrange were full of his chords, I played up the neck and more to the treble register with a heavy attack, on a small-bodied rosewood/spruce guitar. It had surprising treble cut. The overtones probably all didn't make it through, but the volume did and what overtones survived in the tumult may have helped it from sounding too thin.

I'm no expert, but I also think that in mixes, live and recording, lower overtones tend to be more problematic in group recordings than higher range notes' overtones. Mahogany backed guitars and smaller bodied mahogany guitars seem to be "pre-EQed." I have one maple guitar (jumbo Guild 12-string) and it's arched laminated maple seems to help it sit in my mixes. My humble old Seagull Folk (cedar top, laminated Wild Cherry) the same, even though it doesn't have the volume to work well in informal non-PA supported playing.

[bufflehead]

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

I'm only going to add one fuzzy note. It also depends what you are trying to cut through (what is the rest of the ensemble, and what range of their instruments are they playing) and what are you, the guitarist playing note and range-wise.

Good point. Playing in a group with banjo, mandolin and/or fiddles is a world of difference than playing a duet with another guitar.

[J Patrick]

...cutting through the mix is a two edged sword of sorts....while the cut of a mahogany guitar may be advantageous for solos it gives up some of the deeper warmer solid foundation that a Rosewood guitar provides for hard rhythm playing and can sound a bit harsh and less pleasing in that application...

....of course ensemble playing is all about how players and instruments blend and interact and you will always find players and guitars that defy conventional wisdom....so there are really no rules....and the generalizations only exist to be challenged....

...I personally will always select an instrument that I think is the best fit for the situation and never consider what it’s made of...one that will bring something not already present in the mix but also something that can take its place without drawing undo attention to itself....I strive to apply the same guideline to my playing...

[Roseland67]

Cousin had an old,(late 50’s), Gibson “Student” learning guitar,
3/4 body size, all mahogany, wow did it sound great.
Probably the single best acoustic tone I have ever heard.

For whatever reason, I have not been able to find any
guitar that sounds that good.
My current stable is Ibanez, Gibson, Martin, Taylor,
Rosewood and cherry.

BUT, I reserve the right to buy an all mahogany
Guitar of I can find one with that tone😎