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#1
08-01-2019, 06:42 PM
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Interesting first blush comparison Baggs Para DI vs Fishman Platinum Stage
In another thread LJGuitars (Larry) suggested that a better choice of preamp other than the Baggs Para DI (PADI) might be a better choice would be the Fishman Platinum Stage. Respecting Larry's experience and knowledge I ordered one. And so I have two of them side by side. It's taken a couple days to come to a conclusion. In fact I'd written up my initial observations to post... but since have changed my conclusions significantly
I had tested both preamps with three different guitars, particularly focusing on my D35 with a Woody XL pickup seeing if I can bring it to life with a preamp. The answer to that is kinda sort-of. I also have been testing them with my 814ceDLX and 614ce (Taylors, of course). I found it rather clumsy to test them while trying to play, so I got a little fancy, took out my RC-3 looper and two A/B/Y Boxes. I played each guitar into a separate channel and played a bunch of licks, sometimes with different picks to get a long enough sampling to be able to switch back and forth between preamps without having to deal with playing. I'm not totally surprised, but my conclusions while being able to change preamps on the fly while not playing and fiddle with the dials was enlightening. After fiddling for a day I was ready to dismiss the FPS trying to monkey with it while playing. But I wasn't totally happy with the PADI either. I think the thing with the PADI is that the parametric mid sweep thing is difficult to grasp. And it also has a presence control, lacking in the FPS. Once I started listening and fiddling while running music through the looper I came to totally different conclusions. From a sound standpoint I think I'm liking the FPS better, which is a turnaround from yesterday. It's got a crisp sound while the PADI has more of an organic sound. The FPS has a bass mode, lacking in the PADI, but honestly I liked my passive bass in the guitar mode better than in the bass mode on the FPS and was virtually the same help with the PADI. I think the FPS could bring some depth to SOME passive basses, but lacks depth of Bartolini or Audere, both specializing in bass. I was a little surprised at how well my Taylors with ES1 and ES2 systems worked with the FPS. The ES1 got helped with a little extra something while the FPS helped take out that too-much-something brought on by the piezo in the ES2 system. It wasn't earth shattering help in either case but added some extra tonal flexiblity. The real surprise was that the Taylors sounded so good with the preamps that I'm wondering why I should electrify my Martin at all? I have to think about it more, but another member was right... I was trying to find a cheap pickup solution for a near-vintage guitar. I'm beginning to agree, that getting half-way there with something other than top-of-the line isn't the right solution. If I had to choose right now I'd probably have to go with the Fishman Platinum Stage, I think I just like the sound better, by a hair. But it has its foibles. If it weren't $40 cheaper than the PADI the decision would be much harder... and I still may change my mind... or even try something different. The FPS (IMO) has 10 pounds of stuffing in 5 pound bag. If it's not in reach the boost control is worthless. It's got a low cut a pre/post switch and some other bells and whistles. It has a belt clip but is really too large for a belt or strap mounting (for me). It's more suited for the floor. But when put on the floor with cables going in and out, it tips. It would have to be secured. I would have preferred that the in and out or at least the XLR out were on opposite sides. But there's that pesky boost button that Fishman just had to put in to be fancy. Shouldn't be a problem to mount the thing to the pedal board with velcro. I think I would have prefered it to have an effects loop rather than a boost like the PADI does. And oh yeah... The dials on the FPS are too big and the letters too small and difficult to read. If I keep it I'll be putting stickers on the knobs with big letters to help me remember what's what. Big fingers aren't going to like the spacing either. I prefer the dials and the spacing of the PADI much better. My only question is why Baggs put the XLR our going up instead of out from the side? The jury isn't completely out yet. I have to give myself a chance to get a better handle on the PADI. There is so much I like about both preamps. I feel like Tevia in Fiddler on the Roof... On one hand... But on the other hand... Right now the FPS is the leader, if only because of the feature/price factor. Stay tuned.
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Assuming is not knowing. Knowing is NOT the same as understanding. There is a difference between compassion and wisdom, however compassion cannot supplant wisdom, and wisdom can not occur without understanding. facts don't care about your feelings and FEELINGS ALONE MAKE FOR TERRIBLE, often irreversible DECISIONS 
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#2
08-01-2019, 07:01 PM
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Nice review, it's funny how our ears can hear differently from one day to the next. is it possible the first day you may have been suffering from ear fatigue in going back and forth?
Which ever of the two you choose you cant go wrong, both are quality units.
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#3
08-01-2019, 07:41 PM
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If you like the Platinum stage, you'll like the Fishman Platimum pro eq better. Its made to set on the floor and sounds great with my Taylor guitars with ES2.
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#4
08-02-2019, 11:18 AM
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Thanks for the kind things you said. To me the ParaDI was a great addition a couple decades back to a 'severe-gap' in preamps available for acoustic players. It addressed the issue of Piezo Quack with 'power' and feedback on even moderately loud stages. The ParaDI was aimed at solving defects in our gear, and overcoming defects in the existing stage/monitor systems, and PA systems. Most acoustic players I talk with in 2019 want a simple system which is going to sound great and be easy and quick to setup and adjust. Most sound checks these days are 10 minutes (if that) start to finish. If I'm going in direct, I'm setup and playing in under 2 minutes. When I used the ParaDI checks were longer, because I was adjusting my guitar to the room sound more than adjusting the guitar's tone. These days with better preamps & other gear, I'm setting my guitar tone much more minimalistically on the preamp and feeding the signal to the board and allowing them to set the room sound/tone. Since the ParaDI's arrival on the scene, several things have changed in BIG ways…I'll discuss 3 key ones…
Many of the features of the ParaDI were defensive, and aimed primarily at helping us avoid feedback. Accuracy of tone was secondary to 'stage howl'. Since then…in the past 10 years…a lot of higher end preamps have hit the market, coupled with better PA boards which bring new levels of adjustment to stages and rooms we play in. This means WE NEED LESS DRASTIC MEANS OF FEEDBACK SHIELDING and WE CAN NOW FOCUS ON GETTING NATURAL TONE and more guitar volume in the mix. Today's moderately priced crop of preamps (like the Fishman Platinum Stage) are more tone-friendly than feed-back-buckers-of-yore. Thirdly, the newer wave of Soundboard Transducers (SBT) pickups have brought a more natural and friendlier tone to work with tone from the start. When you add an internal mic, that starts to complicate the situation a bit in the feedback arena. But feedback prevention/control is as much a physical adjustment as a tone-knob one. And it's a topic which could use a thread of its own. Now for some truths about sound… Audiences don't care about tone. If they can hear it and it sounds like a guitar they just want to hear music. So all the tinkering is for ME (the player) so I'm happy with the sound. Different gear is required for extreme conditions… If you are playing acoustic guitar in an aggressive rock band or on very loud stages, then get a mag pickup and seal off the sound hole. You will have less headaches. If you are the headliner and not the warm-up act, then you can dictate terms of the PA system and hire a sound tech. Otherwise you have to use other venue's systems and perhaps their sound techs. Accuracy in tone versus what I can live with… If I wanted the most accurate sound I could get, I'd use a Grace Felix ($1100 preamp with extreme tone and output control over two channels). And I'd only play places which let me use my gear from the stage to the house system. So open-mic-nights would be out. Rambling wrap up thoughts… When I say I prefer preamps like the Fishman Platinum Stage over the ParaDI, it is more for player friendliness than for extreme situation correction. Most average players play in situations where they encounter fairly average stages and moderately decent house PA systems. If I were starting from scratch in 2019 I'd use a single pickup with a ToneDexter and record the samples with my 4 styles of studio condenser mics. And I'd see if I still needed additional tone control after that. If I did, then I'd add a preamp to the end of the chain. Hope this adds to the discussion…
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Baby #1.1 Baby #1.2 Baby #02 Baby #03 Baby #04 Baby #05 Larry's songs... …Just because you've argued someone into silence doesn't mean you have convinced them…
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#5
08-02-2019, 11:29 AM
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Which feature of the Fishman Platinum EQ do you feel add to your experience and tone over a Fishman Platinum Stage model? Is there something specific about the EQ which contributes to your Taylor ES2 sounding great through it.
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Baby #1.1 Baby #1.2 Baby #02 Baby #03 Baby #04 Baby #05 Larry's songs... …Just because you've argued someone into silence doesn't mean you have convinced them…
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#6
08-02-2019, 11:38 AM
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If you look at the gear of acoustic artists from the 80s into the mid-90s, you saw a lot of the same thing: Artists using Frankenstein'd setups with multiple pickups installed in their guitar and almost all managed by the Pendulum SPS-1 or a custom preamp of sorts. Those who didn't do that almost always played Takamine, Ovation, or a Martin w/the Thinline Gold in it. Once the Para came out, there was finally a feasible alternative to expensive rack gear and many artists converted for the sake of simplicity. But back then, people were amplifying USTs and the PADI was made with the Baggs LB6 in mind. It's still a good combo with that pickup but very few musicians use the LB6 solo anymore. Baggs has really taken the singer-songwriter scene by storm and I'd say the Anthem and M1A are probably the pickups I see most often followed by the K&K Trinity and the DiMarzio Black Angel system is the latest upstart. The Baggs Venue is a much better match to this generation of pickups than the PADI.
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Alvarez MC90 Guild GAD-50 w/Seymour Duncan Mag Mic Taylor 352ce Taylor 514ce Zoom AC3 https://linktr.ee/erikjmusic
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#7
08-03-2019, 01:03 PM
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I've got four acoustics I would see myself gigging with. Two Taylors, one with ES1 and one with ES2. Then I have my D35 and Epiphone, currently not electrified. And so at this time I'm testing with my SD Woody XL. One of the reasons I'm testing preamps is to see if I can make the Woody usable as I'm vascillating as to putting money into the D35 when I have two other perfectly good gigging guitars, plus the ability to plug the D35 in with the soundhole pu. I've been going back and forth between the PADI and the Fishman, and while the Fishman Stage has more features, I'm finding that the PADI can get a much more natural sound with the Woody and the presence control has a lot to offer this situation, something lacking in the Fishman. The Fishman isn't really a floor preamp, nor is it really a belt clip preamp either. While it is a decent preamp as that, the Fishman might have been much better with a vertical redesign or as a floor design. In its current state I don't see it as either. I had a bass gig last night and I just wanted to give the Fishman a spin. As far as helping my situation for bass, it doesn't. But I wanted to see how easy it would be to use. On the floor it's ok... with ONE HUGE ISSUE. The lettering is so small and thin and positioned to easily confuse which dials are which, especially if you have to turn it. Knowing what I needed to do I put fluorescent lables on the dials to be able to see what they were from a distance and not get confused. If I were Fishman's CEO I'd fire the designer on this one. I've PS'd a composite and attached the image below of stock and potential redesigns... and my own quickie-but-sloppy solution. I shouldn't have had to do that. I may head over to GC and return the PADI and try the Venue, especially if I think I can maintain using the Woody in my D35. The Fishman isn't really cutting it with the Woody. I find the PADI to be more organic and flexible but at the same time lacking some features that as I go forward I'd like to have. More EQ ability. Compression. Built in tuner. I appreciate Larry's rundown one what works for him and I have many similarities in terms of time for sound check. Actually sound check can be almost useless if we check in an empty room, then add 150 bodies. I think my approach for most situations is to dial it the best I can at home for the guitars and then tweak it as I get to the gig. This is all a learning process for me. And perhaps because of what I'm trying to accomplish I'm approaching it backwards from the way someone else might approach it. Again, I find the Fishman basically adequate and at a better price point than the PADI, I'm not sure that the design is something I want to get over to achieve a lower cost.
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Assuming is not knowing. Knowing is NOT the same as understanding. There is a difference between compassion and wisdom, however compassion cannot supplant wisdom, and wisdom can not occur without understanding. facts don't care about your feelings and FEELINGS ALONE MAKE FOR TERRIBLE, often irreversible DECISIONS
Last edited by Kerbie; 08-04-2019 at 01:20 PM. Reason: Please refrain from profanity
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#8
08-03-2019, 02:46 PM
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#9
08-03-2019, 08:45 PM
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Thanks for that. Though they are ok, I have to say after a few days I'm not totally thrilled with either of these two preamps. The FPS hits a price point and the PADI has longevity and solid build on it's side. But there's something in the mids that is just a bit wonky. I can return these and have a line on a new Fishman Platinum PRO for about $200. I think I might like the Fishman Pro a lot better as it has a much better layout, a brilliance knob and compression if I recall... not to mention a tuner and FX loop. I can get a used Venue DI for about that $200 mark as well. What do you guys think?
__________________
Assuming is not knowing. Knowing is NOT the same as understanding. There is a difference between compassion and wisdom, however compassion cannot supplant wisdom, and wisdom can not occur without understanding. facts don't care about your feelings and FEELINGS ALONE MAKE FOR TERRIBLE, often irreversible DECISIONS
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#10
08-04-2019, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Louis
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#11
08-04-2019, 11:32 AM
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So, with the information at hand of what I was shooting for in terms of setting and sound I found it easier to control the PADI than the Fishman. As a basic compact unit the Fishman has a lot of features that the PADi doesn't but they are features that I don't find particularly important. A "boost button" on the side of the preamp is pretty useless unless in your hand. I have a volume pedal that I can use for the same purpose if needed. Bass cut switch is nice, but a necessity? The one feature that I'd rather have on the Fishman Stage is an effects loop which the PADI has. The Fishman Pro has all that the PADI has... and more. If I can get it for $200??? I've tracked one down at CME and will probably head down there with my Martin in hand to try it out. So, I've pretty much (90%) decided that I'm going to return the Fishman Stage. Just too much of what I don't think I need and too little of other things that are important... in a very clumsy package. But you guys have enlightened me. I guess I have to experience it all for myself. Next acoustic gig coming next Friday. I'll report back later.
__________________
Assuming is not knowing. Knowing is NOT the same as understanding. There is a difference between compassion and wisdom, however compassion cannot supplant wisdom, and wisdom can not occur without understanding. facts don't care about your feelings and FEELINGS ALONE MAKE FOR TERRIBLE, often irreversible DECISIONS
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#12
08-04-2019, 01:18 PM
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Often the best way to get a grip on a semi-parametric mid control is to turn up the gain and sweep through the frequencies while playing (a looper can help with this because it frees your hands). As you sweep, listen for the place where it sounds worst, and then cut the gain at that spot in the frequency range until the bad sound goes away. Once you get the hang of it, you can make easier judgement calls about that aspect of the various units you try (and how it interacts with the other features on the unit).
The Platinum Pro's feature-set is pretty comprehensive for a single channel preamp/DI. How useful you will find the things it has that the others don't is hard to predict, though. You'll just have to try it. I'd say, of the features it has that the others don't the foot-controllable boost is probably the most consequential (that is, if you have use for a boost). The low cut on the Pro has a slight edge over the one on the Stage because it's continuously adjustable instead of just giving you three fixed settings, but again just how big a deal that is will depend. The absence of a low cut on the PADI only really matters if there's nothing else in your signal change that provides it (for example, it's very often found on mixers, although it's not always adjustable there). Your mileage may vary as well when it comes to the tuner and the single knob compressor. Louis
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#13
08-04-2019, 03:20 PM
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UPDATE: Visit to CME Yes... I got my hands on a Fishman Platinum Pro. And as expected, it was MILES different from the Platinum Stage in many respects. I don't even have to cite the tuner or the FX loop or the the dialed bass cut to say that it is a totally different beast than the Platinum Stage. The Platinum Pro was very easy to dial in more than an acceptable tone with my D35 and Woody pickup. While I believe that at dedicated installed pickup would probably be better than the Woody, I would have to wonder if spending more money on a top-notch preamp would be wiser than spending money on a pickups that may or may not need a top-notch preamp. I found it interesting, amusing and perhaps a bit perplexing that after testing the preamp with my D35 I wanted to see how good the Fishman Pro would work with a Taylor with ES2. So pulled down a 414Rce (x brace) and plugged that in. Man... I had to really wrestle with the preamp and guitar to dial out the freqencies that transmit every finger squeak with such conviction. Both treble and brilliance were about all the way off and I had to play a bit with the mids bass and bass cut and finally got a decent sound. Here's the thing though... IT WOUDLN'T WORK WITH A 9V BATTERY!!! I brought a new, fresh 9v battery and tried it every which way. Dead. It worked fine with the wall wart- but no battery. We tried swapping batteries and no go. So obviously I wasn't buying that one and that was the only one they had at the store. So now, I have some thinking to do and see if one of the deals I saw was legit with return or not. If the deal is legit I think, based on how much I really liked the Fishman Pro (minus the battery issue) I will probably buy it. Thanks for your help. I've learned a lot in just a few days.
__________________
Assuming is not knowing. Knowing is NOT the same as understanding. There is a difference between compassion and wisdom, however compassion cannot supplant wisdom, and wisdom can not occur without understanding. facts don't care about your feelings and FEELINGS ALONE MAKE FOR TERRIBLE, often irreversible DECISIONS
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#14
08-05-2019, 05:04 PM
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UPDATE- Advice taken to heart
UPDATE...
I'll try to be brief. Sweetwater is sending me a Fishman Platinum Pro and I am returning the Fishman Stage and the Baggs PADI. What I discovered on my outing to CME is that the Platinum Pro could get my D35 and Woody sounding quite good; good enough that I can, at least for the moment, abandon the idea of purchasing a mid-level pickup for the D35. I still have other un-electrified acoustics that can take advantage of the temporary mount of the pickup and the sound modification of the EQ/DI. I'd considered stepping up to the Baggs Venue DI, but the size of the box for my situation was bigger than I wanted. The Fishman has compression, which is one more thing and I actually liked the tuner and was able to get accurate tuning to my ear. And it also has the FX loop which I think can be be helpful. So hopefully I'll have the Fishman Pro on Wednesday and be able to use it and love it on Friday's gig. Thanks for all your help in educating me about all these different preamps. I learned a lot from you guys.
__________________
Assuming is not knowing. Knowing is NOT the same as understanding. There is a difference between compassion and wisdom, however compassion cannot supplant wisdom, and wisdom can not occur without understanding. facts don't care about your feelings and FEELINGS ALONE MAKE FOR TERRIBLE, often irreversible DECISIONS
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#15
09-24-2019, 03:17 PM
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So how about a followup to this interesting story?
Quote:
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Gear: PRS Hollowbody II Piezo, Martin HPL 000, PRS Angelus A60E, Martin 000-15M
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