Have Electronic Tuners Led to the Popularity of Intonated Saddles?

[Robin, Wales]

Here is a discussion topic that I have not seen covered before.

I have recently switched the saddles on my guitars from modern intonated ones back to the old style round-topped straight bone type. These old style saddles play absolutely fine in terms of intonation for my playing style. And the round-topped design seems to have taken the harsh edge out of the trebles that I noticed with intonated saddles, where the string "shelf" is often narrow and flat.

I have wondered if electronic tuners have led to a bit of a fixation on intonation so it has become a "thing" that it never used to be. And, for most players intonation doesn't need to be such an issue that the saddle needs to be anything more than set in a slot with a slight bass to treble angle.

Are we loosing out on tone by opting for fancy shaped saddles when the old style round-topped actually produced a better sound? I see that the new Gibson Original series have the traditional saddles fitted and I don't here players sounding off about the intonation being an issue.

Does anyone else prefer the old style saddles?

[srbell]

For me, no. My ears were sensitive to the out of tune sound long before I ever had an electonic tuner. I find it very irritating if its not right. I suspect others just may not be that sensitive to it, or they don't play up the neck far enough for it to really come into play.

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by srbell

For me, no. My ears were sensitive to the out of tune sound long before I ever had an electonic tuner. I find it very irritating if its not right. I suspect others just may not be that sensitive to it, or they don't play up the neck far enough for it to really come into play.

That would be me. I am very sensitive to tuning (I build my own dulcimers in just intonation) but if I'm playing up at the 12th fret it is because I have a capo on the 7th and so have retuned anyway for that new starting point.

[beninma]

I think some people are WAY less sensitive to tuning and intonation than others.

People I play with drive me bonkers when their guitar is out of tune and sometimes it's like pulling teeth to try and get them to tune cause they can't hear it.

Modern efforts to improve intonation probably have more to do with guitar builders being predominantly people who can hear all this stuff. Someone designing guitars who can't hear in and out of tune is probably at a handicap.

[RalphH]

I was highly skeptical when my hummingbird, which is a 1960 re-issue came with a rounded, uncompensated saddle - I'd not seen one before (having started playing guitar in the 90s), but it intonates extreemly well.

The E string is 0 cent out at the 12th fret (yes, I checked that twice)

The B string is 3 cent out. ok it's not "perfect" but a) I don't play it at the 12th fret and b) I don't think that's within the range of human perception. It's certainly not within the range of this humans perception and I'm reasonably sensitive to tuning because like beninma, playing with others who are less sensitive really causes me pain!

So in answer to your question, yes, maybe.

Or maybe it makes it easier / cheaper to get a guitar "good enough" without a lot of time-consuming, skilled labor, or with a higher action?

[fazool]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

.....for most players intonation doesn't need to be such an issue that the saddle needs to be anything more than set in a slot with a slight bass to treble angle.

.....the old style round-topped actually produced a better sound...

Those are statements presented as facts but I believe they are not true.

I've had the exact opposite experience and the fact that almost all saddles are compensated suggests that it is an accepted fact that each string needs slightly different intonation.

A well adjusted guitar will have each and every position on the saddle hand filed for optimum intonation.

It's a compromise between manufacturing costs and what is minimally acceptable.

[Fatfinger McGee]

I doubt very much it's about electronic tuners, and more about the ability to mass-produce with very tight tolerances. If you can't build to a tight spec, you're probably better off with a more permissive rounded saddle, with fine-tuning by a tech down the line. If you can, you can incorporate the compensated saddle into the build and deliver a better guitar cheaper. Pure speculation on my part of course, I don't build guitars.

[EZYPIKINS]

Originally Posted by fazool

Those are statements presented as facts but I believe they are not true.

I've had the exact opposite experience and the fact that almost all saddles are compensated suggests that it is an accepted fact that each string needs slightly different intonation.

A well adjusted guitar will have each and every position on the saddle hand filed for optimum intonation.

It's a compromise between manufacturing costs and what is minimally acceptable.

There are allot of variables to intonation. Myself, I do all my own work. I have been buying strings and intonating my guitars since the 70's.
You could get intonation set with one brand of strings. Try another brand, Or let humidity drop and all your work is ruined. I use the same brand model and gauge on all my guitars. I set them all up for my touch. Set my action and intonation for each individual string. Everything from the top of the saddle. I don't file the bottom of the saddle at all. I'll slot the saddle. Kind of like slotting a nut. Using a large file. .052" or .056"
Once I get action and intonation where I want it. I put a pencil mark where the string rests. And file down the rest of the saddle to match. Been doing this way over 40 years. I have the nicest playing guitars I've ever played. When I go to music stores, everything I play feels like crap. Yes even the high end stuff.

[beninma]

Originally Posted by Fatfinger McGee

I doubt very much it's about electronic tuners, and more about the ability to mass-produce with very tight tolerances. If you can't build to a tight spec, you're probably better off with a more permissive rounded saddle, with fine-tuning by a tech down the line. If you can, you can incorporate the compensated saddle into the build and deliver a better guitar cheaper. Pure speculation on my part of course, I don't build guitars.

That makes sense... the type of pre-intonated saddle that came on my Taylor doesn't look like it would be reasonable to make without high precision modern equipment.

And if they got it wrong it seems more likely you'd destroy it trying to adjust the intonation than if you started with a more traditional rounded one.

Also I have noticed on the Taylor one (Micarta) that the intonation shaping ends up putting the string pressure on a tiny little knife edge and the strings wear into it pretty noticeably in a year or two.

The flipside is it's dirt simple to just drop another one in.. since the guitar is made to not depend on sanding the saddle it makes replacing the saddle a 2 second affair.

[Wade Hampton]

Interesting question. My guess is that, yes, as our ability to measure the accuracy of the intonation of the strings at the saddle has grown, it’s encouraged the growing popularity of intonated saddles.


whm

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by fazool

Those are statements presented as facts but I believe they are not true.

I've had the exact opposite experience and the fact that almost all saddles are compensated suggests that it is an accepted fact that each string needs slightly different intonation.

A well adjusted guitar will have each and every position on the saddle hand filed for optimum intonation.

It's a compromise between manufacturing costs and what is minimally acceptable.

Well I wouldn't say I was issuing "facts" as I did have a question mark after at least one of those statements.

And I'm not sure that your statements are true in every case - non of the Martin Authentic range have intonated saddles, they are fitted with curve topped straight pieces of bone dropped into an angled bridge slot. And those saddles are on $6,000+ guitars.

[Taylor Ham]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

Well I wouldn't say I was issuing "facts" as I did have a question mark after at least one of those statements.



And I'm not sure that your statements are true in every case - non of the Martin Authentic range have intonated saddles, they are fitted with curve topped straight pieces of bone dropped into an angled bridge slot. And those saddles are on $6,000+ guitars.

Other cheaper Martins down to the road series and probably even the mini martins have compensated saddles. That's not what the Authentic series is focused on.

[FrankHudson]

I suspect the onset of inexpensive electronic tuners might have increased this, but as others in the thread have mentioned, many humans believe they are hearing out-of-tuneness on fretted string instruments before tuners were common, and hear it now after using a tuner too. And think too about the discussions of electronic tuners and models to be rejected based fractions of a cent difference in their accuracy specs.

Given that we are largely in a world of tempered scales since Bach's time for other practical reasons, those tweaks to make the overall tempered tweak sound more in tune are likely inescapable side-effects. It's not just saddles, it's things like Earvana nuts, Feiten tuning, fret preferences, sweetened tuning schemes, etc. I suspect many (most?) good-ears players tweak their tuning regardless of saddle type. And you make a good point: getting it dead-solid-perfect at the 12th fret may not be the critical factor for most acoustic players who tend to play below the 7th-9th fret area.

My own sense of pitch is lousy, and so for me the main consequence of electronic tuners was that I sound better to myself, and the likelihood is that others who have ears like mine will sound better too.

I have some acoustics without any extra intonation bevels. I'd have to look to tell you which ones, which tells you they don't bother my less than perfect ears. And I laugh to myself at those who find something like the three-saddle Telecaster barrels as insufficient on the electric guitar side, as they are a better saddle design that most of our acoustic guitars -- and with the kind of thin strings many electric player use, we're micro-bending without intent all the time!

[beninma]

Since you mentioned Bach...

Since the modern guitar didn't exist in Bach's lifetime... what fretted string instruments existed and if they were using a different temperament wouldn't the frets have been placed differently?

Do any of the other temperaments make the guitar more or less difficult to intonate?

I'm going to guess it would not be hard to switch between different guitars with the frets placed differently for different temperaments.. no different than changing between scale lengths.. but it must have been weird, and it must have been the case that the instrument would have performed worse in some keys than others compared to a modern one right?

[Stomp]

Originally Posted by beninma

Since you mentioned Bach...

Since the modern guitar didn't exist in Bach's lifetime... what fretted string instruments existed and if they were using a different temperament wouldn't the frets have been placed differently?

Lute & viol/viola da gamba come to mind, their frets are moveable and can be set or split in two for both C sharp and D flat, D sharp and E flat etc.

Meantone temperaments were, and still are, popular with these two instruments nowadays, particularly 1/4 and 1/6 Comma.

And because their octaves can contain up to 15 notes due the the accidentals included (sharps and flats as separate pitches), they don't have to deal with the compromise which is encountered in Equal temperament when it comes to consonance.