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  #16  
Old 03-09-2022, 01:24 AM
stanron stanron is offline
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Originally Posted by Methos1979 View Post
That's the intro for Blue Suede Shoes!

Rock Around The Clock's intro is:

'One, two, three-o'clock, four-o'clock rock...'

We play both.
You are right. I've edited my post to correct this. Thanks.
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  #17  
Old 03-09-2022, 02:37 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by jasperguitar View Post
I'm struggling again . And again . And again.
..

I listen to a song. I look up the song on chord eeeee or wherever .. get the word, get the chords ..

Then? I seem to fail trying to match the chords/lyrics with the stand count of the measure/ bar.

Any help ? this is driving me nutty.
Basically, stop trying to count. Listen to the original to get the feel.

The problem - and it's a familiar one, at least in my students (I don't recall having a problem myself, but maybe I did) - is the difference between the rhythm of the guitar and the rhythm of the vocal.

The guitar tends to keep a steady beat (aside from any fancy strum patterns), while the vocal is usually phrased in a much more complicated way, on and off the beat, syncopated here and there, etc.

I.e., there are two different kinds of "natural" rhythm at play. It's "natural" to keep a steady beat in an accompaniment - that's the thing that it's sometimes useful to count, when learning to play it, precisely because the beats are steady, and tend to fall into groups of 4 (sometimes 3), and those measures than also fall into groups of 2 or 4. But as you get the feel of where the changes come, you should stop counting, because counting beyond that stage just confuses everything. Your subconscious has got it; the conscious mind will just get in the way.

But the "natural" rhythms in a vocal melody are more related to the varied rhythms of speech. In melodies, natural speech rhythms are often exaggerated, and quantised to various note values (so they are "in time" in that sense), but those note values are more varied than the beats you strum, and accents can occur in unusual places.

So it's perfectly "natural" (!) to find it difficult to match one rhythm against the other - certainly if you are still having to think about keeping time with the guitar! You can't think about two different rhythmic patterns at the same time - playing one and singing the other!

There are two possible solutions: (1) play the chord sequence over and over and over until it becomes subconscious. Until you can almost have a conversation with someone without disturbing your rhythm. Then it should be easy to sing over it, same as you can walk and talk at the same time without your steps being upset. (2) Practice singing and playing at the same time, but do it slowly, steadily and incrementally, along with the recording. I.e. take just one measure, loop it, and copy it as you listen. This is difficult to begin with, naturally, but may take no longer in the end than (1). It's also a very organic way of learning, because you embed all the interrelationships as you go.
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  #18  
Old 03-11-2022, 03:27 PM
Andy Mitchell Andy Mitchell is offline
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Originally Posted by Robin, Wales View Post
I think that we all struggle a little with this when working on a new song.

What I would suggest is don't count, or even try to fit the words to specific measures. Just get the guitar part rhythmically wired and sing the song as a story across the top, moving your singing phrasing to match the story. You only need to come back to the beat at key moments.

I'm just a campfire player/singer - not very good at all - but I can separate the vocals from the guitar. And I think that makes a big difference. Here's an example from a practice session last year. I record myself sometimes just to see how I'm getting on. In this version of White Freightliner Blues I'm deliberately separating the sung phrases from the strict guitar measures and I think that the story stands out a bit more by doing that. Like I said, I'm just a sit around the campfire player - so if I can manage it, it can't be that hard!!!!



This may be helpful for you, or not relevant at all.
Not relevant to the thread, but I very much enjoyed your version of this tune. Thank you!
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  #19  
Old 03-13-2022, 05:26 AM
broy broy is offline
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Originally Posted by hatamoto View Post
Isolate it. If you have a mac, use garageband. If not, there's a free version of Amplitube and it has a built in DAW. Get an mp3 of the song and drag it in the DAW and isolate that part only so it keeps on looping with the metronome on. Saves you a lot of time rewinding to that part and you can focus on the playing.
Great advice, hadn't thought of it, but just imported the song i'm trying to learn and looping through specific sections really does help
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  #20  
Old 03-13-2022, 10:53 AM
tbirdman tbirdman is offline
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Originally Posted by jseth View Post
Just REALLY know the song... however works for you... and then "feel" your way into it. There may be a couple tricky parts but most songs are fairly straightforward with the rhythm and phrasing.

Funny, if you listen to truly gifted vocalists, they rarely follow the normal cadence; sometimes holding a note/word far longer than the norm, or starting a phrase late into a bar... it's a way to really personalize the delivery of the tune.

When I had the good fortune of working with Judy Davis, back in the early 90's, she spent quite a few sessions on what she called a "sub plot" and how to work that for each song. Basically learning to tell the story of what the song means to you in your own individual interpretation...

And that was all about shifting all the melody/lyrics outside the "bar lines"...
Funny you say feel as that is exactly what I told my instructor last week when I was initially having trouble with a new song. I told he I was having trouble playing as I was paying to much attention to the chords instead of feeling when the chord changes should occur. She laughed and said I been telling you so.
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  #21  
Old 03-13-2022, 07:37 PM
The Bard Rocks The Bard Rocks is offline
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I sometimes write my chords in sequence before the start of each line of the verse. Then I just "feel" when it's time to change. There are times when that is easier for me.
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  #22  
Old 03-14-2022, 11:02 AM
jjbigfly jjbigfly is offline
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Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks View Post
I sometimes write my chords in sequence before the start of each line of the verse. Then I just "feel" when it's time to change. There are times when that is easier for me.
Perhaps the problem is that much of what you can get from some online sources is incorrect. After struggling with a number of songs in which the chords are correct, but shown in the wrong places in relation to the words I was able to understand that you usually change chords when you “feel” that it is time.
The actual chords are usually correct, but not always……
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