Congratulations to those who fretted their own guitars...

[Jackknifegypsy]

I got that 1/32" from one of the luthiers who has a page on his website devoted to saddle placement. If I can find it again i'll post it here.

After my own feeble attempts at saddle placement and the long running threads in the last few months-- with Charles reaching the breaking point, you, and all the others who have been kind enough to not hold back on your offerings, be they critical, or scathing, but always expert----it quickly dawned on me that this exacting part of guitar rehabbing or building, might just be best left to you and all the other Professional Luthiers.

Now with the fret slotting and precision required to get it right, yet another unanticipated obstacle rears its head and all along I have avoided making the sides because I thought they would be the toughest and most exacting part of the process. I guessed wrong. I now think I can make the sides with a tenth of the intense effort I have put into saddles and frets.

I don' t think it would be out of line to offer ALL newbies to the Build forum a warning, caution or threat that they should only attempt a build, or saddle, or fret job if they have consummate skills, training in precise machining, and extremely good luck. Prayer might even be offered for believers. This is as you write, some of the most exacting work in wood, and I would add metal as well as Swiss watch making.

Had I known how difficult, next to impossible those three aspects of guitar making are for a neophyte, I might have saved Charles from the severe reactions he has had to my inane approach to short cut these three very complex techniques of the art of Luthiery.

[Jackknifegypsy]

I have a half dozen thin kerf type saws and blades, use a carpenter square for lining up the cut beside the blade (scoring the first few strokes with a box cutter), clamping down the fret board to the table, and still, every single cut is just off several thousandths. I don't want to end up with a fretboard that I would never use in a rehab or a build. But that is what is going to happen if i don't get more practice doing it. That is why I am going to finish the board I'm working on: for the practice.

I like to make jigs and John and Charles have what appears to be a method to do it on a table saw with a kerfing blade. That will likely be my next step after a short break to actually play for a while.

[Bugeyed]

As with many skills, talented luthiers make it look so easy. The reality is that almost every step in making a guitar involves a unique skill set & extreme attention to detail.

Cheers,
kev

[Ben-Had]

Some people seem to have the skill to use a tool not intended for a certain purpose and make it work for what they are trying to do. I am not one of those so I invested in the proper tools and built/bought the proper jigs for guitar building.

I feel pretty confident in my building skills now but I have all the right tools. As they say - "Having the right tool for the job makes all the difference in the world."

I hear of first time builders struggling all the time trying to adapt a tool they have on hand to do a job it wasn't intended for and then expressing their frustration with guitar building.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Jackknifegypsy

I don' t think it would be out of line to offer ALL newbies to the Build forum a warning, caution or threat that they should only attempt a build, or saddle, or fret job if they have consummate skills, training in precise machining, and extremely good luck.

I realize you are being somewhat facetious, but that is not at all what I would caution novice guitar makers about to start their first instrument who have limited experience in fine woodworking.

What I would caution them, and have, is that good basic skills are required in the use of woodworking tools to perform the fine woodworking that is involved in guitar making. These skills can either be developed prior to starting to make a guitar, or learned as one makes their first guitar. However, there is a lot to know and a lot to learn. That takes a lot of time and effort.

For example, an edge tool - chisel, knife or plane - is near useless unless SHARP. Getting an edge tool SHARP requires certain knowledge and the use of any one of a variety of specific methods. Just buying a chisel from a local hardware store and a sharpening stone isn't going to provide the novice with the sharpness of tools necessary to produce a good first-time effort. Knowledge and skill are required to know what to do and how to do it to get the chisel SHARP. Ditto for many of the other skills required to make a guitar.

So, if one doesn't already have that skill, sharpening for example, where does one learn or develop it? One option is books, another hands-on instruction from those who are experts, another is on-line from webpages or videos. The fastest, least frustrating way is to have an expert show how its done and then physically correct your technique. Videos can show how it is done, and, if one follows the advice meticulously, can be copied with some trial and error. Static sources, such as books and webpages, can explain the process, but there are always holes and gaps that the individual must fill-in himself, another source of trial and error, and the often accompanying frustration.

There are more people making guitars now than ever before. Anyone with a computer - including me - can write or video whatever they want and offer advice or simply show what they do, often then considered an "expert" if only by the virtue of having "published" it. While there are many methods and techniques that can be very successfully used to do any one task - for example sharpening a chisel - the task of finding that information is increased significantly when many "experts" provide incorrect information, such as 1/32" being sufficient in saddle placement. How is the novice to separate the chaff from wheat? As more information is more easily available, it has become more difficult.

My advice would be to choose a proven source - not some guy with a video making his first cigar box guitar - and follow, very carefully, the methods and techniques that individual gives. By virtue of the proven source, you know that it works successfully, at least for him (or her). Don't mix and match for a first guitar. Don't survey the market, and "average" approaches, taking a bit from here and bit from there. Follow one expert's approach, to the letter, from start to end. Want to improvise? Want to "improve" on the expert's approach? Great. But not until you have the basics down. Use proven methods the first time (or two) around. Follow them precisely. Don't read about how one expert makes fingerboard slots with a back saw and then decide you can substitute a coping saw. Want success? Follow the methods provided exactly. Once they work for you, feel free to vary them.

That is what advice I'd give to someone wanting to make a guitar. I'd add only, it won't save them any money - it will cost them money - to make their own, unless, maybe they do it at one of the schools of luthiery. As someone on the board has so well put it, "It's like buying a boat to save money on fish." Lastly, few get rich making instruments. Those who do it for a living are compelled, internally, to do so. Many love the work. Many have a love/hate relationship with the work, continually striving to make a better instrument using better methods.

[Jackknifegypsy]

Every so often in life I get stuck. And I am once again reminded of the expert advice and philosophy of Robert Pirsig that I seem to forget.

He wrote the excellent book, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance".

It's time for me to re-read it.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

When you are talking fret placement, 0.005" can ruin it. This is some of the mosty exacting tolerance in woodworking. The tolerance you cited is more appropriate for a cabinetmaker...a job I did for a few years in the early-1980's.

Frets are like .080" - .100" width ... any competent set-up tech possessing a Peterson tuner will rectify a fret which has been misplaced by .005" with a few strokes of a file ...

[John Arnold]

any competent set-up tech possessing a Peterson tuner will rectify a fret which has been misplaced by .005" with a few strokes of a file ...

The point is, if you put it in the right place to start with, there is no need to start fudging.
JKG was concerned about holding 1/32", which is too much to compensate for by crowning.

[Jackknifegypsy]

Perhaps I was "misunderestimated" when I mentioned the 1/32".

I was not referring to frets, but saddles. 1/32" on a fret would indeed be ruinous and i said as much in my earlier post about tolerances being too iffy for me to use the coping saw on 20 consecutive frets. I am now working on your and Charles' use of the table saw and kerfing blade model and hope to be able to finish it in the coming week.

If you have any tips in its construction they are welcome.

[charles Tauber]

Here are the basics of a common approach to the use of a table saw for fret slotting. Note the specialized saw blade and the accurately notched template.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Sp...b=Instructions

[Ben-Had]

Here's mine. It's pretty simple.

[tadol]

I have to stop and think about all the wonderful instruments that were built, and all the great music that was made, prior to everyone having their own CNC, or even their own table saw, or even before Mr Edison brought power to all the workshops in the world. Much of what I read and hear has more to do with repeatability and speed than it has to do with quality or precision.

I know consumer expectations are much higher than they were - and I know that standards for precision are much higher than they were 50 years ago. But wanting to build a guitar is not the same as becoming a luthier, just like building your own kitchen cabinets does not make one a cabinetmaker or building a brick wall make one a mason. A coping saw blade, in tension from a solid frame and cutting on a pull stroke, can cut a very straight and accurate line. Dragging the blade between a pair of stones can easily adjust the set to a speciic width. Is it ideal? No - Is it cost effective? Hard call - Will it do the job? Uh, yeah, it could, if you're careful - Would anyone recommend it? No -

Ultimately, if someone brought you a guitar to evaluate, you'd play it, listen to it, check the fit and finish, the intonation, and when all is said and done, it'll all come down to how it sounds and the price - at least, for most players it does -

So if someone wants to build a guitar with a jack knife and an emery board, well, more power to them. They won't earn the title of luthier, but maybe that isn't their goal? Thanks to everyone who offer all the help to those of us who lack the skills, and a special thanks to those who try, without all the special tools and skills, and are willing to share their efforts -

[Jackknifegypsy]

Off topic, but did you also make that nifty Table saw insert out of wood or are my eyes playing tricks?

And thanks for the photo of the Jig.

Charles, thanks for the Stew-mac referral on the Table saw whatchamacallit. I'm part way there already having made a perfect Shooting board for other purposes about 3 years ago.

Tadol:

I think get what you are writing about, and, yes repeatability is paramount to me in this endeavor. I can do so many things once, and then the beginners luck peters out and I'm left with a sense of incompetence. (I'd like NOT to have my performance with a Driver off the Tee or a 4-iron out of the rough, be a plague on my attempts at everything!) Just doing something three times in a row to perfection may seem like a relatively easy goal, but not for me when it comes to something new, like making a saddle, bridge, or fretboard that is as near perfect as any one can make it; and it doesn't even have to look pretty---though beauty seems to follow---as night, day, form and function.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by tadol

Much of what I read and hear has more to do with repeatability and speed than it has to do with quality or precision.

My first guitars were built with a handful of hand tools and a router. Later, I added a bandsaw. Later still, a drill press. That was it for the first 10 years. I did nearly everything by hand.

Later I added a jointer, a drum sander, radial arm saw and a table saw. Now, I'm just starting to apply CNC machinery to the process. (I did some CNC programming 25 years ago in school.)

For me, it is about achieving better quality with the least effort. For example, hand planing and scraping backs and sides of ebony involves an amount of effort that involves words that get censored here. Doing that with a thickness sander is simplicity itself - no tear-out, entirely uniform thickness. The "quality" is better, with less effort. It also reduces the amount of time it takes from hours to minutes. That, in theory, frees me from the "mundane" to be able to spend that time in "higher" activities, such as design. (The flip side, as many in our fast-paced society are discovering, is the "Zen" of performing "mundane", simple activities, while stepping away from the loud, inhuman, complex machinery.)

Another aspect is expanding what is possible. For example, cutting "blind" or "pocketed" fret slots. Instead of sawing straight through the width of a fingerboard, then grafting binding back onto the edges of the fingerboard to conceal the ends of the frets, the slots can be cut blind - that is, so that the fret slot does not extend to the edge of the fingerboard. A CNC machine makes that idea a possibility. It also increases accuracy and repeatability, which are about improving quality. Sometimes, new methods (new technology) allows new things to be done. Sometimes those new things are improvements.

3D printers, offer all sorts of possibilities for manufacturing. It'll be interesting to see how that technology makes its way into guitar making. For example, need a new bridge? Download a design you like and print it. Need a new nut? Design what you need and print it. That isn't about speed or reproducibility.

I've spent years honing my handtool skills, so I'm all for the use of traditional tools. But, there are other methods of manufacturing than just whittling away at a piece of wood. It is interesting to explore those and the possibilities for design they make possible.

As a final thought, some years ago, I was treated to a private tour of the Royal Ontario Museum's collection of old instruments. I was quite surprised to find how "primitive" much of the workmanship was compared to today's standards. I've found that to be true in many of the older instruments I've seen, including a late 1800's Gibson archtop made by Orville himself. In my experience, the quality of guitars, and of the designs, has never been better than what is available today. The flip side is that never before has so much been available at such low prices - the other end of the spectrum. That isn't possible with "old-world" manufacturing methods. Is that a good thing? Opinions vary. Certainly many people like owing "entry-level" Martin guitars that even 25 years ago didn't exist.

[Ben-Had]

Originally Posted by Jackknifegypsy

Off topic, but did you also make that nifty Table saw insert out of wood or are my eyes playing tricks?

Metal & YW.