Taylor Truss Rod Issues

[paul678]

Originally Posted by nosckaj123

well, my main concern is that I am in college right now and basically have no money so no matter what the guitar is going to have to wait another few years. I will just take extra care not to harm the neck and hopefully by the time I have money for the repair it won't just be a broken guitar sitting in my closet haha

If it is a problem with the truss rod anchor, and it finally gets to the point of not being anchored at all, the fret board will have to be removed, unless you somehow get miraculously lucky, and don't need a truss rod for the proper neck relief (highly unlikely).

I've done this on cheap beater guitars twice, and although it was interesting, I sure as hell wouldn't want to try it on a guitar I really cared
about.

If you ever DO try to fix this yourself, and the anchor is similar to these:



do yourself a favor, and WELD that puppy on there. DO NOT
BRAZE THESE ONTO THE ROD. BRAZING IS NOT STRONG ENOUGH
FOR TRUSS ROD TENSIONS.

Please do NOT ask me how I know this!

[nosckaj123]

I wonder if since it's a Taylor it would just cost less to bolt on a new neck than it would to go through the trouble of fixing the current one. I'll have to ask the Taylor repair center about that.

[paul678]

Originally Posted by nosckaj123

I wonder if since it's a Taylor it would just cost less to bolt on a new neck than it would to go through the trouble of fixing the current one. I'll have to ask the Taylor repair center about that.

That's a pretty decent guitar, not a $15 beater that I did
experiments on.....take it to the Taylor people.

Either way, it would cost you a bit...but the new neck would
probably be easier and cheaper and quicker.

[John Arnold]

I cannot imagine a new neck would be cheaper than replacing a truss rod. It's about an hour's worth of work in my shop.
A new neck from Martin is about $1200....don't have a clue about Taylors.

do yourself a favor, and WELD that puppy on there. DO NOT
BRAZE THESE ONTO THE ROD. BRAZING IS NOT STRONG ENOUGH
FOR TRUSS ROD TENSIONS.

I have seen too many welded rods break because of the crystallization that can occur. They almost never break at the weld, but right next to it.
I don't weld or braze. I thread the rod, tap the anchor, and screw them together. A little red Loctite and bradding the end of the rod will secure it nicely.
I have been doing it that way since 1981, and haven't had one failure yet.

[paul678]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

I cannot imagine a new neck would be cheaper than replacing a truss rod. It's about an hour's worth of work in my shop.
A new neck from Martin is about $1200....don't have a clue about Taylors.

I have seen too many welded rods break because of the crystallization that can occur. They almost never break at the weld, but right next to it.
I don't weld or braze. I thread the rod, tap the anchor, and screw them together. A little red Loctite and bradding the end of the rod will secure it nicely.
I have been doing it that way since 1981, and haven't had one failure yet.

I'm not sure what the going rate is for a truss rod replacement,
but since I've done it twice, I know it's not a simple operation,
and I cannot imagine ANYONE doing it in an hour!

The weld a friend of mine did is NOT going to break. It was a
very solid TIG or MIG weld (forget which one), and I made ****
sure it would never break again.

I wouldn't trust Loctite to anchor a truss rod. It won't hold.

[clinchriver]

Originally Posted by paul678

I wouldn't trust Loctite to anchor a truss rod. It won't hold.

Red Loctite on a threaded rod won't hold? Explain that?

[steveyam]

Originally Posted by clinchriver

Red Loctite on a threaded rod won't hold? Explain that?

Well, in this example I'm not saying that it will or it won't hold. What I do know is that Loctite (and there are various versions, some 'more permanent' than others) is used to stop nuts from vibrating loose and to stop water ingress and subsequent rusting leading to the nut and bolt rusting together. So, Loctite can be, and often is, a facilitator of being able to take nuts and bolts thus treated, apart! Consider how hard it can be to turn truss rod nuts, and imagine if you were applying that kind of rotational torque to the Loctited nut and bolt (which in effect you are in this case, it's just at the other end of the rod), you'd maybe expect it to turn, right?

I haven't checked up on Loctite colours, so most probably Red is the so-called permanent one. But how permanent is 'permanent' when a lot of torque is applied? That's the question. I'm not being definitive here, merely asking the question, is Loctite - a substance used to enable nuts to be taken apart - strong enough to withstand truss rod adjustment torque levels. Maybe the Red stuff is. I've got my doubts.

[paul678]

Originally Posted by clinchriver

Red Loctite on a threaded rod won't hold? Explain that?

It's not going to be as strong as a MIG or TIG steel
weld!

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

I have seen too many welded rods break because of the crystallization that can occur. They almost never break at the weld, but right next to it.

For what ever it's worth, this is known as the "heat affected zone" (HAZ). It isn't the actual weld material deposited, but the metal next to it that undergoes recrystalization due to the high heat applied during the weld. The area becomes brittle and is often the source of failure in welded joints.

I have been doing it that way since 1981, and haven't had one failure yet.

Can't argue with success.

[Glen DeRusha]

I make my own which are removable. And you can pull it out, flip it over, and use it the other direction, if you need or want to. If something ever goes wrong with it, you can pull it out, fix it, or replace it. The kids in the metal shop at your local high school should be able to make one for you. It's not that hard to do. You can have the nut access at the head stock, or through the sound hole. And make them any length that you want to. Mandolin or bass.

Someone might say that they are to heavy and they rattle. Those are probably lies that someone made up because, they don't know how to make them themselves? They don't want to change from what they are doing? Marketing ploy to make you think that their product is better? Etc.? Put on a blind fold and feel and listen for yourself. I have never had an issue with them.

To peel off a fingerboard and replace the rod. I charge $450.00. With minimum touch up to the finish, or not. And there probably is going to be some cosmetic damage. That might be to cheap. After seeing this thread, I am going to bump it up another $100.00.

Don't send anything here to get fixed. I don't have time to do it.

I have never seen a Martin truss rod not work. John? Have you?

And is the rumor true that Martin is changing their truss rod design?

Glen

[arie]

Originally Posted by steveyam

is Loctite - a substance used to enable nuts to be taken apart - strong enough to withstand truss rod adjustment torque levels.

loctite grades 271 and up are thread lockers and up require heat to remove -usually a torch. if one wanted to enable hardware to come apart the correct choice would be an anti-seize lubricant.

speaking from experience, loctite grades 271, 291, etc... makes hardware extremely tough to remove without heat in the form of a torch, a cal rod, or an induction coil. without these aids what usually happens is that the bolt head shears off and the threaded portion has to be drilled out.

without seeing the truss rod in question i can't comment on the latter portion of your statement. is the rod single action? double action? a compression rod? have you see mr arnold's truss rods? seems like an invitation to assume and speculate to me.

[steveyam]

Originally Posted by arie

loctite grades 271 and up are thread lockers and up require heat to remove -usually a torch. if one wanted to enable hardware to come apart the correct choice would be an anti-seize lubricant.

speaking from experience, loctite grades 271, 291, etc... makes hardware extremely tough to remove without heat in the form of a torch, a cal rod, or an induction coil. without these aids what usually happens is that the bolt head shears off and the threaded portion has to be drilled out.

without seeing the truss rod in question i can't comment on the latter portion of your statement. is the rod single action? double action? a compression rod? have you see mr arnold's truss rods? seems like an invitation to assume and speculate to me.

Right, I'm now educated re Loctite types that stop nuts and bolts being taken apart. Thanks. But you are quite wrong regarding the use of (certain types of) Loctite Threadlock that stop nuts and fastenings coming loose with vibration and simultaneously help those nuts to be subsequently undone because the substance stopped the ingress of water and the formation of rust. You can undo nuts and bolts that have been assembled with Loctite Threadlock. Like I said previously, some Loctites are permanent - and you've explained about those - and some, like I just explained are designed and manufactured to be taken apart. Nothing to do with anti-seize lubricant, not needed, different problem ie corrosion. Loctite stops corrosion.

[arie]

Originally Posted by steveyam

Right, I'm now educated re Loctite types that stop nuts and bolts being taken apart. Thanks. But you are quite wrong regarding the use of (certain types of) Loctite Threadlock that stop nuts and fastenings coming loose with vibration and simultaneously help those nuts to be subsequently undone because the substance stopped the ingress of water and the formation of rust. You can undo nuts and bolts that have been assembled with Loctite Threadlock. Like I said previously, some Loctites are permanent - and you've explained about those - and some, like I just explained are designed and manufactured to be taken apart. Nothing to do with anti-seize lubricant, not needed, different problem ie corrosion. Loctite stops corrosion.

since your original assumption was about thread locking i didn't mention the vast number of loctite's other grades that allow for fastener removal of which i'm familiar. i suggest that you purchase some of them and give them a try -you'll gain the needed experience for an informed contribution.

anyway, no worries.

how did this thread get so de-railed? such is the way of internet forums i suppose

[steveyam]

Originally Posted by arie

since your original assumption was about thread locking i didn't mention the vast number of loctite's other grades that allow for fastener removal of which i'm familiar. i suggest that you purchase some of them and give them a try -you'll gain the needed experience for an informed contribution.

anyway, no worries.

how did this thread get so de-railed? such is the way of internet forums i suppose

I have been a user and purchaser of Loctite for years. Yeah, I initially had reservations about the stuff's ability to '100% lock' as I'd never used it in that way before, but just to keep threads from shaking loose and to be able to take them apart at a later date.

[paul678]

Originally Posted by arie

loctite grades 271 and up are thread lockers and up require heat to remove -usually a torch. if one wanted to enable hardware to come apart the correct choice would be an anti-seize lubricant.

speaking from experience, loctite grades 271, 291, etc... makes hardware extremely tough to remove without heat in the form of a torch, a cal rod, or an induction coil. without these aids what usually happens is that the bolt head shears off and the threaded portion has to be drilled out.

without seeing the truss rod in question i can't comment on the latter portion of your statement. is the rod single action? double action? a compression rod? have you see mr arnold's truss rods? seems like an invitation to assume and speculate to me.

For a very simple anchor like the one I fixed, where the anchor looks
basically like a modified nut, welding was really the only way to attach the
rod. Loctite would not have worked.

But for a set screw design like you see on this thread:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f18/my...72/index2.html

...where you mill a flat area on the rod, and use a set screw
to hold it, I can imagine the red Loctite would do the job of keeping
the set screw from turning loose.

So it's obviously dependent on the design, as you said.