Can rhythm be learned or is it just natural ability

[RichinGA]

After taking a long hiatus from playing I’ve recently picked up the guitar again. I am really loving it, and have been laser focused on improving with practice. (Several hours a day). While I have improved in many areas, I still struggle in maintaining rhythm. I practice with a metronome and usually start off with easy 4/4 time signatures. As I speed up or try more complex songs my rhythm goes off the tracks. My question is whether rhythm can be improved with practice using proper techniques, or is it just natural born ability?

As an aside, I am taking lessons regularly with a well regarded instructor (whom I respect and trust). He harps on the importance of maintaining rhythm, and says it is more important than hitting the right notes. My challenge is that when learning a new song (through tabs) it’s difficult to focus on placement of fingers on left hand (fretting) and right hand finger picking, while keeping the rhythm all at the same time. My brain is just not wired to allow me to handle all three things at once. Once I learn the fretting hand and the picking pattern I am more comfortable in getting the rhythm, but my instructor says I have it backwards. It’s rhythm first, and then worry about the notes.

Comments or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

[srick]

Check out this recent thread: https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...50#post7350450

There’s a lot of good information there. I started late in life and was very rhythmically challenged . I had to learn to breathe and add a little body movement during my playing. I think anyone can learn how to have rhythm, it just takes the right type of lesson.

[mercy]

It was natural for me, even syncopation

[BlueStarfish]

Your instructor is correct in that, to the listener, rhythm and groove matters more than correct notes. Of course both even better, but for the listener a break in the groove is much more noticeable than a wrong note.

It sounds like what is missing is discussion about how our brains learn. I would argue, in terms of learning a new piece, start with the notes. Do it at an extremely slow tempo (or even, no tempo at all!) Because, as you have experienced, it’s too much for your brain to process to get it all at the same time. Once you have the notes under your fingers you can bring up the tempo and work on groove.

If you do it the other way around (start by focusing on the rhythm and groove, not worrying about hitting the right notes) then there is a high risk you will train your fingers (well, really your brain) to play the wrong notes at speed. That’s not good. “Practice makes permanent … only perfect practice makes perfect”

Check out Jamie Andrea’s teaching materials for a much deeper exploration of this important topic.

[rmp]

what I've seen from teaching is the guys who struggle are just too rigid with the picking hand.

there needs to be a sort of looseness to the stumming hand where the wrist is really loose and able to rotate freely.

ya know how if you smack your hand on something accidently or touch something really hot, we tend to shake our hands/wrists very quickly?

that's pretty much a similar kind of movement you need, but it needs to be more controlled. And you have to kind of think in terms of timing (where's the "1"?) and tempo

you'll get it. it's more a "Feel" thing, but once you get it, you're off like a herd of turtles.

[Mandobart]

Can rhythm be learned or is it just natural ability?

Yes to both. Just like learning new languages, athletic pursuits, mathematics, understanding people, understanding non-human animals, operating vehicles, etc. there is a broad analog spectrum between those with natural ability and those who will struggle very hard just to reach competency.

Your instructor is exactly correct - rhythm rules. More important than playing fast or beautiful tone.

The right kind of focused, directed practice helps. Also, listen to a variety of music as much as you can. Play music with otbers, while watching and listening, as much as you can.

I believe I have some natural ability in music in general and rhythm specifically. Or maybe it's because I started when I was 10 and have a lot of hours of practice, rehearsal and performance. Or maybe because I've always listened to and played a lot of classical, jazz, swing, rock, C&W, klezmer, slack key and bluegrass.

[min7b5]

Originally Posted by RichinGA

...My question is whether rhythm can be improved with practice using proper techniques, or is it just natural born ability?

I can say as a guitar teaching for thirty-five years it can absolutely be improved. And with real dedication usually pretty quickly. You've got the right idea practicing with a metronome. I rarely practice without it, otherwise I'm just working on notes. Just stay with it. And eventully consider putting it on the "two and four." I made a short video about this a few years back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWOa0vfv5FY&t=1s

Originally Posted by BlueStarfish

Your instructor is correct in that, to the listener, rhythm and groove matters more than correct notes. Of course both even better, but for the listener a break in the groove is much more noticeable than a wrong note.

...I agree very strongly with this one

As someone that did tours of just guitar stores around the US for Santa Cruz, and has played many a guitar festival, I've spent a lot of time playing to a roomful of just guitar players. But years ago I decided I that I would pretend I was playing to roomful of drummers instead. And it made a made a big difference. I try to mostly think about the time ( and tone) and just trust the hands to more or less find the right notes, because I've learned the hard way the other way around doesn't fly for me.

[alien]

Originally Posted by mercy

It was natural for me, even syncopation

It was the same for me. I started playing drums/percussion in the school band when I was 10. Played all through high school. I picked up the guitar about 11 or so. I have never had a problem with rhythm or keeping the beat etc. But that doesn't mean that it can't be learned or improved upon. Like almost anything, some are naturals and some are not.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by RichinGA

After taking a long hiatus from playing I’ve recently picked up the guitar again. I am really loving it, and have been laser focused on improving with practice. (Several hours a day). While I have improved in many areas, I still struggle in maintaining rhythm. I practice with a metronome and usually start off with easy 4/4 time signatures. As I speed up or try more complex songs my rhythm goes off the tracks. My question is whether rhythm can be improved with practice using proper techniques, or is it just natural born ability?

As an aside, I am taking lessons regularly with a well regarded instructor (whom I respect and trust). He harps on the importance of maintaining rhythm, and says it is more important than hitting the right notes. My challenge is that when learning a new song (through tabs) it’s difficult to focus on placement of fingers on left hand (fretting) and right hand finger picking, while keeping the rhythm all at the same time. My brain is just not wired to allow me to handle all three things at once. Once I learn the fretting hand and the picking pattern I am more comfortable in getting the rhythm, but my instructor says I have it backwards. It’s rhythm first, and then worry about the notes.

Comments or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Hi RichGA…

I have a teaching degree in music (elementary and secondary, vocal and instrumental) and can tell you that many people who learn music have to be taught rhythm, not just notes.

I spent about ⅓ of the class time in the younger grades teaching rhythm exercises without music. We had great fun doing exercises, and what was really fun was about grade 3 they suddenly 'discover' syncopation, and the majority of them pick it up instantly.

I do not agree that keeping the beat (or rhythm) is more important than playing the right notes. They go hand-in-hand.

If you are practicing and the rhythm becomes unmanageable, then slow the metronome down and get it back under control. Part of learning this is playing simple things till they are so boring you can play them in your sleep (so to speak) before either speeding up, or making it more complex.

Above all, don't play erratically going for speed over accuracy. They are a matched pair.

[ghostnote]

I think everyone has an innate sense of rhythm. Our heartbeat, for example, has been, hopefully, keeping a steady beat for our entire lives. Some rhythms are harder to hear than others, but I think that if you’re having an issue with it, you’re probably just thinking too much about a different part of the music. Rhythm is more about feel than science.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by ghostnote

…Rhythm is more about feel than science.

Hi ghostnote
As a player and teacher I break musicians into two categories when it comes to rhythm…

Those who feel it, those who follow the notes (and don't seem to feel it at all). The latter group don't get along well with jazz.

They are in the minority, but they exist in enough quantity so as to be easily noticeable when I was involved with school orchestra, band, choir. They struggled with freer styles.

[Bluenose]

Is having good rhythm the same thing as having good timing?

This is an anecdote I remember reading about Emily Remler.

She once auditioned early in her career for a guitar player position in a top Latin jazz band but didn't get the job because the band leader told her she had bad timing.

She said that upset her to the point of tears and she became determined to improve her timing. She practiced for many, many hours with a metronome set to click on the 2 and 4 beat and ultimately became a very fine jazz guitarist.

I think she would have achieved worldwide acclaim had she not died tragically of a heroin OD at a young age.

Morale of the story: most people can improve their rhythm if they are willing to put in the time and stay away from hard drugs.

[rick-slo]

I would say rhythm is innate to a large degree (at least usually). One uses rhythm in most of what they do such as physical activity, speech...

However in music some involves learning what is expected of one in certain circumstances, certain types of music.

[JonPR]

Food for thought:


However - it does help to be brought up in a rhythmically rich culture (as West Africans are). It's easy in the west to miss out on all that, so when we take up an instrument - or learn to dance! - we feel clumsy. But it just needs to be re-awakened.

Your teacher is absolutely right: rhythm first. Someone with really tight rhythm will sound great even playing something really simple. Someone with shaky rhythm will sound bad (like an amateur) however clever and complex the piece they are playing.

The metronome is the essential practice tool, but the goal is to eventually do without it. It's about training your internal clock, which is naturally flexible - it runs fast or slow depending on your mood or stress levels. That's why it's common to play too fast or speed up when playing live - and moreover, to be unaware you're doing it.

[zuzu]

It has always been natural for from the wrist up; the wrist and fingers (bass and banjo, even electric guitar, played bare finger, are, to a large degree, no prob). Learning to play with a flatpick has been more of a challenge, just a different sort of physical feel to it. I thought I was doing quite well until a couple of weeks ago when I started laying bed tracks on acoustic with a click track...it wasn't a disaster but wasn't really usable either. I got past the first one and for the past week or more have run through the songs a couple of times a day with a metronome and already see definite improvement. Should have done it months ago...