Gobo vs full room treatment

[runamuck]

I started with gobos and now have a treated room. Gobos were quite an improvement to start with and then treating my entire smallish room even better.

You could build or buy 4 free standing gobos and experiment with them, surrounding you and your mics. If that doesn't get you to where you'd like you'll not have wasted money because you'll be able to hang them along with others.

Make sure they're bass traps, 2' X 4' and the thicker the better.

[min7b5]

Originally Posted by zenpicker

... I'm hearing phase issues and just general boxiness that I can't seem to get past regardless of mike position (have tried X-Y, ORTF, and my old reliable spaced pair with the two Peluso P28s and the ADK LDC in the middle for enhanced midrange..

Few random thoughts: In the second photo, to the left, you seem to have that tall wood folding panel. Dropping a blanket or two over that and putting it behind you -while prolly mostly just high-end eater- might give you a just quick idea of what a little more absorption in the room might do. And second, sounds like a you’ve tried quite a few things, but I know the spaced pair with LDC in the middle has always made things quite a bit worse phase-wise when I’ve tried it -just sayin. I assume you tried just the spaced pair fairly close? Also, if it’s a multi-pattern LCD maybe try mid/side. I know in theory it’s bringing in more of the room with the sides mic, but I’ve actually found that not as much of a problem, and the figure eight’s deep null would be facing one side of the room.. Just stuff to play with Oh, another random place to look at trapes (which I’m looking at too): https://realtraps.com

[zenpicker]

Originally Posted by jim1960

In smaller spaces, you can never have too many bass traps. Low frequencies build up in smaller rooms.

Thanks. I'll get down to it.

[j3ffr0]

Originally Posted by zenpicker

Super helpful. One question on the bass traps: how necessary is it to go aggressive on these, if I am playing pretty quiet fingerstyle?

The GIK guy that I've been talking to told me that does't doesn't really ever recommend the 2" panels for small rooms. Nothing but the 4" bass traps or bigger. And the good thing about the 4" panels is that they are small enough to still make reasonable gobos while being big enough to actually to absorb down to 80hz or so.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by j3ffr0

The GIK guy that I've been talking to told me that does't doesn't really ever recommend the 2" panels for small rooms.

I'd use 2" panels for an overhead cloud in a small room but nowhere would I use them in a small room. On the walls, all 4" panels ...even the 6" ones if you have the room.

[keith.rogers]

A lot of this discussion about trapping seems to be recording focused, and if that is all you are doing in a room, gobos can make a big difference. The thing to consider is whether you are also going to use the room to mix and have monitor speakers. Then, as jim1960 says, you probably need to trap the dickens out of the space. If you have done just the minimum to help track and reduce room effects in your recording, but then make wrong decisions in the mix because you can't really hear what you recorded, it's not the best tradeoff (IMO, "pennywise, pound foolish," or something like that)

My room started as a mixing space, and being square, I had a lot of problems. So, over a few months I put a couple dozen batts of rockwool into frames and got things where I feel like I can trust what I hear, at least to the extent my ears allow me .

I have double thick (Safe'n'Sound 3.5" x 2 with a small air gap in 1x8 frames) floor to ceiling traps in 3 corners (door in the 4th - I leave it open occasionally - effectively a trap), plus single thickness panels 4'x16" (panel width limited by the size of material I can source locally) in front, at early reflection and above. A thin, dhurrie rug and some other (cheap/bad) fake oriental runners. Turns out that is not a bad recording space because the room is fairly well out of recordings. (Exterior noises are a different problem, but I don't work on a schedule.)

[b1j]

Originally Posted by keith.rogers

A lot of this discussion about trapping seems to be recording focused, and if that is all you are doing in a room, gobos can make a big difference. The thing to consider is whether you are also going to use the room to mix and have monitor speakers. Then, as jim1960 says, you probably need to trap the dickens out of the space. If you have done just the minimum to help track and reduce room effects in your recording, but then make wrong decisions in the mix because you can't really hear what you recorded, it's not the best tradeoff (IMO, "pennywise, pound foolish," or something like that)

My room started as a mixing space, and being square, I had a lot of problems. So, over a few months I put a couple dozen batts of rockwool into frames and got things where I feel like I can trust what I hear, at least to the extent my ears allow me .

I have double thick (Safe'n'Sound 3.5" x 2 with a small air gap in 1x8 frames) floor to ceiling traps in 3 corners (door in the 4th - I leave it open occasionally - effectively a trap), plus single thickness panels 4'x16" (panel width limited by the size of material I can source locally) in front, at early reflection and above. A thin, dhurrie rug and some other (cheap/bad) fake oriental runners. Turns out that is not a bad recording space because the room is fairly well out of recordings. (Exterior noises are a different problem, but I don't work on a schedule.)

OK, so you found 4’x16”x3.5” Rockwool. Can anyone find 4’x2’x3.5” Safe and Sound Rockwool today?

[keith.rogers]

Originally Posted by b1j

OK, so you found 4’x16”x3.5” Rockwool. Can anyone find 4’x2’x3.5” Safe and Sound Rockwool today?

The local Lowes actually has 2’x4’ batts in stock! I might pick some up and redo a couple of the narrower wall panels - have to mull that over for a while, but my wife would support that probably if I promised not to cover them in an array of garish fabric remnants like the first crop have .

[zenpicker]

Originally Posted by min7b5

Few random thoughts: In the second photo, to the left, you seem to have that tall wood folding panel. Dropping a blanket or two over that and putting it behind you -while prolly mostly just high-end eater- might give you a just quick idea of what a little more absorption in the room might do. And second, sounds like a you’ve tried quite a few things, but I know the spaced pair with LDC in the middle has always made things quite a bit worse phase-wise when I’ve tried it -just sayin. I assume you tried just the spaced pair fairly close? Also, if it’s a multi-pattern LCD maybe try mid/side. I know in theory it’s bringing in more of the room with the sides mic, but I’ve actually found that not as much of a problem, and the figure eight’s deep null would be facing one side of the room.. Just stuff to play with Oh, another random place to look at trapes (which I’m looking at too): https://realtraps.com

Eric, thanks for this. I have indeed tried straight spaced-pair without the LDC and it's lacking something, to my ear...even a little addition of the LDC signal in the mix warms it up.

As far as phase goes, it's interesting. I use Adobe Audition as my DAW (apparently I'm the only one on the planet, but I've used it for many years now) and it has excellent phase-analysis tools. When I apply them to my mixes with the LDC I really have no issues to speak of. Everything is hunky-dorry phase-wise. It may be because I have the LDC a good 10-12" behind the SDCs, I don't know...but it doesn't seem to present a problem. I think my issue is more reflections and standing waves from the room itself. The mikes seem to be playing fine together.

Also, I've used that mike setup for years with good results—the problems began when I remodeled the room. I suspect the hard floor more than anything else, and last night I brought in a small rug to put under the mikes and recording chair. Haven't had time to test yet, but maybe it will help a little.

I've also just ordered materials to build some freestanding absorption panels and should have enough left over for a cloud. I like the idea of four easily reconfigurable panels just in terms of flexibility of experimentation. If that plus the rug doesn't cut the mustard I'll add some corner treatments and more aggressive bass trapping.

All the advice here has been so good! At this point it's a matter of balancing acoustics, budget and aesthetics for this multi-use room.

[zenpicker]

Originally Posted by keith.rogers

A lot of this discussion about trapping seems to be recording focused, and if that is all you are doing in a room, gobos can make a big difference. The thing to consider is whether you are also going to use the room to mix and have monitor speakers. Then, as jim1960 says, you probably need to trap the dickens out of the space.

Yup, for sure - unfortunately I have a bit of a room layout challenge with creating a good mixing desk / monitoring location for mixing purposes. Too many windows that I just don't want to cover up with acoustic treatments. So that's a bit of an unsolved mystery at the moment...

Thankfully my mixes are really straightforward and replicable, in that it's just me playing fingerstyle, with the same mike configuration, in the same (hopefully improving) room. In my old space I got that dialed in pretty well and could do a good mix with just my Grados and some listening on a variety of open speakers, including a pair of Behringer monitors. Once I knew what worked, I just kept doing that. Once I get the recording sound I want here I'll see about the mixing environment, for sure.

[zenpicker]

So, built some gobos and waiting for the glue to dry to see how they do. Now I'm thinking about a cloud. It's a low-ceilinged room, so I don't want anything too bulky...

I found this and wonder what people think: https://www.amazon.com/UMIACOUSTICS-...097RDT93T?th=1

They are ultra-thin, but claim an NRC rating of .91. Is that credible? They are something I wouldn't mind hanging from the ceiling, if they work...

Thoughts? And thanks for all the help, gang. This discussion is moving things along nicely.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by zenpicker

They are ultra-thin, but claim an NRC rating of .91. Is that credible? They are something I wouldn't mind hanging from the ceiling, if they work...
.

.91 at what frequency? They don't say. I doubt these do much for anything but highs, just like typical foam.

[MikeBmusic]

Originally Posted by zenpicker

So, built some gobos and waiting for the glue to dry to see how they do. Now I'm thinking about a cloud. It's a low-ceilinged room, so I don't want anything too bulky...

I found this and wonder what people think: https://www.amazon.com/UMIACOUSTICS-...097RDT93T?th=1

They are ultra-thin, but claim an NRC rating of .91. Is that credible? They are something I wouldn't mind hanging from the ceiling, if they work...

Thoughts? And thanks for all the help, gang. This discussion is moving things along nicely.

0.4" foam won't absorb anything.

[zenpicker]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

.91 at what frequency? They don't say. I doubt these do much for anything but highs, just like typical foam.

Sounds like the right question. I've posted it to Amazon.

[zenpicker]

Originally Posted by MikeBmusic

0.4" foam won't absorb anything.

Seemed that way to me too. I've asked to see NRC data across a frequency spectrum and I suspected it will bear you out. I'll report back if I get anything from them.