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#31
02-18-2022, 08:03 AM
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I really enjoy this type of thing. Thanks for posting. These all sound really good with the singer. Seems like he could make many mics sound good including all of these. The most apparent differences to my ear are in the bottom... some having more or less. Also in the top some are definitely smoother than others and some are a little more forward than the others in the mids. Switching back and forth, sounds like I would be happy with any of them initially. Of course it takes a bit of working with a mic and playing around with the position on a few different sources to really get to know a mic.
A few months ago I was thinking my mic drawer was looking pretty good, but I didn't have a really strong vocal LDC, and I saw a decent deal on a used U87ai on reverb. It's one of the newer ones. I figure I can always sell it for about what I paid for it. I did a quick comparison with a few mics I had handy, and it sounded good on me -- really different than anything I else I tried. Good enough that I wanted to keep it. I had a female singer in here a few months ago and tried a few mics on her. The U87 was easily the best for the bunch on her. It really put her voice right where I wanted it as far is sounding great in the mix right off the bat. Handy to have some version of U87 around.
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Alvarez: DY61 Huss and Dalton: DS Crossroads, 00-SP Kenny Hill: Heritage, Performance Larrivee: CS09 Matt Thomas Limited Taylor: 314ce, 356e, Baritone 8 Timberline: T60HGc 
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#32
02-18-2022, 08:28 AM
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And just couple more thoughts in general about all this. There is no perfect method to test mics AND it is debatable if there is even a better method for audition ... Because ::: While the notion that testing multi mics at the same even only inches apart can create variation is true Unfortunately is is also "just as true" that singing thru different mics one at a time, will also produce variations (i.e different performances ) There simply is no vocalist alive that can produce the exact same performance repeatedly . One reason multi-tracked vocals sound good, is yep the slight variations. If there were no variation they would sound like one mono recording .......... So IMO the above A/B is in fact just as valid as any other A/B method Obviously best way to test any vocal mics on your voice and in your space is to actually get them into your recording space and on your voice, but unfortunately that has "variation" issues as well. For one often it can be logistically very difficult and or prohibitively expensive to rent/with deposit etc. multiple mics at the same time .... And the problem is of course, the longer the time frame between getting multiple mics into your space and auditioning them is ---- Human memory is one of the least reliable sources of accurate data . Just sayin...
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Enjoy the Journey.... Kev... KevWind at Soundcloud KevWind at YouYube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD System : Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1 Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Sonoma 14.4 Last edited by KevWind; 02-18-2022 at 08:36 AM.
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#33
02-18-2022, 10:50 AM
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I enjoy evaluating information in a shootout like this. I don't always learn something, but many times I do. This time around I learned about the Serrano 87, which made my time worth the effort. It's great to know that more companies are springing up to create clones of classic, high quality gear for reasonable prices.
- Glenn
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My You Tube Channel Last edited by Kerbie; 02-18-2022 at 11:48 AM.
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#34
02-18-2022, 11:44 AM
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Guys, we'd appreciate it if everybody keeps Rule #1 in mind. We all have our own personal opinions and biases toward equipment, but one man's ceiling is another man's floor. So, please voice your opinions with courtesy.
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#35
04-28-2022, 10:01 AM
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New U87 CONTENDER!
I love my Schoeps mics on acoustic Guitar. Fast transcients and accurate reproduction. But I have also always really liked the big capsule fullness of a U87 and U67 on Acoustic guitars. And of course, the the original U87's are classic on voice.
There is little question as to the the science, quality parts, build quality and research that went into making Neumann's legendary microphones. Whether modern clones could ever be as good as the original will always be debated. And for good reason. Some of the materials used to build these old boys are no longer available and or have been changed do to the new EPA requirements. Jim1960's post on the U87 clones showed me that finally modern technology has caught up and is making good representations of that classic sound for very affordable prices. So much so, that I am seriously considering buying one of these. A brand new contender has just emerged and has certainly caught my eye. UT TWIN87 by United Studio Technologies. *This mic has some very of interesting features. "Modern “87-style” microphones incorporate an output filter designed to block RF and EM interference — much debate has taken place over the years as to whether this filter enhances or harms the sonics of the microphone. The UT Twin87 has also ended this debate, as the filter can be engaged/disengaged at any time, in either Vintage or Modern mode! " "In Vintage mode, the UT Twin87 polarizes its capsule directly by phantom power voltages, taking advantage of an insulated, dual backplate capsule design — just as the earliest "87-style" microphones did. The high-Z and de-emphasis circuitry use all of the same component choices as the original. This yields a slightly warmer, softer and forgiving sound. In Modern mode, the capsule is polarized at a higher voltage using an FET oscillator circuit as found on later revisions of the classic mic, yielding a higher capsule sensitivity and feeding a hotter signal into the amplifier circuitry. Its high-Z and de-emphasis circuitry likewise use all of the same component choices as much later “87-style” designs. This yields a louder, slightly brighter and more articulate response, with an extended top end reach and a more ‘up-front’ character. " ** And this one particularly caught my eye "United developed their own custom-wound part which has nearly four times the metal mass found in any “87-style” microphones." United's custom-wound, US made transformer is built with large, All Nickel laminations. Like anyone else....I get caught up in marketing. And I sure like the marketing on this one! Can't wait for some reviews to come on this mic. https://unitedstudiotech.com/en/products/ut-twin87
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#36
04-28-2022, 11:26 AM
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Jim 2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi 2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood 2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar 2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce 2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce 1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos. YouTube
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#37
04-28-2022, 03:19 PM
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I'm sure some of these microphones sound good and will be more than adequate for home recordists, but you don't see many of professionals jumping at these mics because they KNOW the Neumann standards get the job done.
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#38
04-28-2022, 05:19 PM
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https://vintageking.com/united-studi...ser-microphone
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#39
04-28-2022, 06:20 PM
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Jim 2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi 2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood 2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar 2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce 2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce 1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos. YouTube
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#40
04-28-2022, 09:15 PM
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Don't Go With Neumann Clones, K&G
Aloha K&G,
One couplet applies here - "resale value." The UT TWIN87 has none. Original Neumann's always will provide the very highest resale value. You know Neumann 87's, right Knives & Guitars? Like Schoeps, real Neumanns - even modern ones - are the way to go - NOT CLONES. Always go with the original Neumann 87's, 47's, etc.. They are "lifetime" purchases. You can save money by buying a used U87 & then shipping it off to Neumann for reconditioning. Their refurbishing process takes some time to turnaround. BUT, Neumann's refurbishing process puts more care into their mic's than U87 clone manufacturers like United Tech put into building their cheap rip-off, new Neumann clones. I have auditioned many, many Neumann U-47 clones over the years - too many. A very few occasionally were close to the original "47" sound: (Telefunken, Andreas Grosser w/ vf14 glass tube), Horsch & Bock) to the original Neumann U-47's sound, but not consistently from one mic to another. "47" clones may look like the original Neumann's, but NEVER sound like the originals, at ANY PRICE POINT. To me, modern "47" clones present usually completely unfaithful rip-off reps of the original Neumann U-47 classic. But none of the clones I like completely matched the original Neumann sound. There have been so many Neumann clones made. And most don't sound anything like an original U-47 (auditioned LIVE), (i.e. the Warm Audio 47 clone I auditioned last year comes to mind). The only thing in common is the Neumann-style "47" badge on the side that was appropriated to sell mic's. In terms of U-87's, I also owned a few pairs of mint, unaltered, barely used original's from the 1970's (hidden in a German attic, unused for decades!). I really loved these pristine original models among U-87 models, especially compared to the current U-87ai's. But, the newer Neumann "ai" models can give you that original U-87 sound with just a bit of EQ'ing - because they ARE Neumann's. They are THE standard brand for microphones. No one builds them better or to higher standards. And Gefell was a part of Neumann prior to WWII. Same high standards. And the U-87 is their most versatile LDC, the main reason why it is the most sought-after in the world RE: sales. Why Stray from the best or be lured or blinded by a fake badge on the barrel or false marketing claims? I know you are the curious type, K&G. But on this 87 clone? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PABO6WrPjFQ All the best to you, my talented friend Knives & Guitars. These are just my educated opinions based on sound comparisons & home studio auditions (not science) from my many years as a mic collector. Obviously, most long time recording hobbyists will at one time or another go on a search to reveal if original Neumann mic's are "all that." Or if the latest cheaper clones are even somewhat close in sound to the originals. Well, let me save you the time & money auditioning to hear the differences - NO Neumann Clone to date sounds like ANY original Neumann model at all! So like with your Schoeps, I recommend you save up for an original Neumann U-87 (any vintage or model & refurbish it at Neumann), if that's the LDC that works best on your voice or instruments. A Hui Hou! alohachris PS: Neumann's are obviously not the ONLY high-end LDC's out there (My Microtech-Gefell UM900 surprisingly was better on my voice than any U-47 I owned or auditioned). But Neumanns do provide the highest mic build quality, consistency, & a sonic variety in their models that can be applied to an infinite number of male & female voices, instruments or recording applications. Cannot be beat. Neumanns are built to the highest standards, combine well with most similar-quality preamps. & can make your home recordings sound like a million bucks. Good Luck K&G! - alohachris - Last edited by alohachris; 04-28-2022 at 10:27 PM.
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#41
04-29-2022, 08:43 AM
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Most people have no idea what the original 47 sound is because there's no way to know that today unless someone develops some method of time travel. The last original U47 was produced in 1965 and the last or the original Telefunken VF14 tubes was made in 1957. Even if everything still works in a fully original mic today, parts age and 60 years or so is going to make those mics sound different than they did when they came out of the factory. And because parts will age differently in different environments, you can't expect even all original U47s to sound the same today. On top of that, once you start replacing internal parts or the tube or you re-skin the capsule, you wind up with "original" U47s that don't even sound like each other. So no clones can be 100% faithful to the original sound; they can only be faithful to the U47 that was used to tailor the sound of that particular clone. Granted, some clones are not really clones at all because they fall quite outside the range of how we would expect a good vintage 47 to sound but there are others that get quite close to what a good sounding U47 is today. The Telefunken U47 reissue and the Flea are two I'd place in that category. Neither are cheap microphones, retailing for $9000 and $4500 respectively, but when you consider that buying a vintage 47 will run you $20K-$30K, both seem like bargains and both will sound very close to some 47s out there. Will there be differences? Sure ...but as I said, there will be differences between vintage 47s and those differences can be fairly wide. I think renting microphones to "try before you buy" is a good idea but if someone rents a vintage 47 the only thing they walk away knowing is how that particular 47 sounds and there's no way for them to know if it's a good representation of the microphone. Besides, unless they have $20K+ laying around to spend on a single mic, renting a vintage 47 may not be the best use of their money. In the end, the best mic for them may not be the mic that sounds most like that particular vintage 47; the best mic is going to be the one that sounds best to them when put in use on whatever they intend to record. Anyway... I'm not really disagreeing with you, just adding a bit more for people to consider. I always appreciate your insight into these things.
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Jim 2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi 2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood 2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar 2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce 2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce 1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos. YouTube
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#42
04-29-2022, 10:09 AM
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I would add that the notion of renting high quality microphones is not realistic unless a person lives in a big city that has a rental company which has an inventory of expensive mics.
I live out near the coast of Washington state, more than 120 miles away from Seattle and even further from Portland, OR. It's a 5-hour round trip to Seattle. Renting microphones is not realistic for me. - Glenn
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My You Tube Channel
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#43
04-29-2022, 01:09 PM
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With SCD's, I have yet to hear a clone that quite matches what I am getting from my Schopes. But again, that is also personal taste. Schoeps suits my needs for what I am doing. I think the tolerances with a small capsule, and the small body in which the electronics to fit, have to be much tighter & higher quality in order to get that superb sound that they do. With Large diaphragm microphones....the potential is now there for clones. We have had many years in the crossover of new parts and regulations in which to adjust and create good quality. Previously, claims of authentic and accurate reproductions where made by overseas companies. Companies who where appealing to the masses and would not truly spend the time to create and invest in good parts to make the whole. But now there is a new generation of U.S makers who do use some overseas parts, in combination with U.S parts to create better quality. In theory, we should be at the level in order to make something that is reasonably close. In my mind....most of it comes down to quality of the parts. As a low income earner, It would be impossible for me to save up to get all of the high end gear that I can. My hope is that there will be companies that do truly invest the time and effort into creating good product for less monies. Luckily with Guitars, Larrivee has given me a tremendous tone that from my auditioning has equaled many guitars costing two, three and even four times as much. So my hope is that one of these days, some of these microphone clones will be close enough to satisfy my needs, just as Larrivee has more than suited my needs for a very reasonable price. Yes, you are so right about resale value of a classic versus a new generation. But at $699...I would probably only take a couple hundred dollar loss if I were to sell it later. NOT saying I am going to buy it. I need time to hear more reviews and shootouts. As far as shootouts? Again, you are right....shootouts don't tell you everything. So many shootouts are not done to my satisfaction. However....they are very good at pointing us in the right direction. such was the case of Amazon Rosewood. I heard a youtube guitar with Amazon rosewood. I heard something that I was searching for. Then I heard another Amazon rosewood and it seemed to have the same characteristic. Thus, since I could not audition this rarer wood, I took a chance and ordered a guitar made with this. Loved it so much, that I ordered another! Anyway...my point is, with limited budget...sometimes you have to take some chances. Luckily I believe this mic can be auditioned and then returned if not happy. Only loosing out on shipping. Still, I Will wait till I hear more about this mic. In the meantime, it is sure fun to dream that one of these marketing claims will in fact turn out to be true. P.S Your continual praise of the Gefell UM900....sure does make me want to audition one of these some days
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#44
04-29-2022, 02:46 PM
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Did a comparison vid three years ago - not very good because to much room in the signal. I don't want to hijack this thread, but if you are interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A8X1GEOycs
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Blazer & Henkes, vintage Martins & Gibsons, Altman, Martin 00016 Streetmaster mandolin family, Weissenborn, dobro, lap steel, pedal steel, 5-string banjo live gear: Dazzo, Schatten, K&K, Mimesis Kudos, Schoeps CMC6MK4, DPA4061, Neumann KM85, Grace Felix 2, SunnAudio, ToneDexter, RedEye https://www.youtube.com/@roberthasleder1526
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#45
04-30-2022, 05:09 PM
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Regarding resale value of used microphones that are not the highest-priced offerings, I just checked the used microphone costs for Warm Audio WA-47 and WA-84 mics, which are the mics I currently own, among others.
The used prices for the WA-47 and -84 mics are the same price or higher than the prices I paid for these mics new. So these mics are not losing their value. My WA-47 is 4 years old, my WA-84 mics are 3 years old. I do note that the original Warm Audio issue of the WA-87 is selling for less because the new Rev II version, covered in the shootout, is a substantial improvement. - Glenn
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My You Tube Channel Last edited by Glennwillow; 04-30-2022 at 05:14 PM.
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