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Old 04-23-2018, 12:17 PM
JimCA JimCA is offline
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Default Chords - A picture is worth a lot of words

https://www.dropbox.com/s/67doy5axlj...Scale.pdf?dl=0

Like why the odd-ball diminished chord and why G7 is more common than C7 in key of C.

[Updated to address Fazool's concerns.]

Last edited by JimCA; 04-24-2018 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 04-23-2018, 12:30 PM
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I took college level music theory so, while not an expert, I do understand....mostly.



That chart/table to me was so convoluted as to be useless.
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Old 04-23-2018, 12:33 PM
Kerbie Kerbie is offline
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I agree with Fazool... makes sense to me. In the key of C, G7 is the 5 chord... the final chord of the 2-5-1 progression. The G7 resolves beautifully to the C. Jim, maybe I don't understand what you mean...
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Old 04-23-2018, 12:45 PM
JimCA JimCA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerbie View Post
I agree with Fazool... makes sense to me. In the key of C, G7 is the 5 chord... the final chord of the 2-5-1 progression. The G7 resolves beautifully to the C. Jim, maybe I don't understand what you mean...
The picture shows which chords have their notes entirely within the C scale. G7 does whereas C7 does not, C major 7 does.
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Old 04-23-2018, 04:13 PM
merlin666 merlin666 is offline
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What is the little triangle for?
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Old 04-23-2018, 04:39 PM
JimCA JimCA is offline
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Originally Posted by merlin666 View Post
What is the little triangle for?
C▵ = C major 7

I used the triangle because it fits in the box.
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Old 04-24-2018, 05:13 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimCA View Post
https://www.dropbox.com/s/67doy5axlj...Scale.pdf?dl=0

Like why the odd-ball diminished chord and why G7 is more common than C7 in key of C.
Works OK, except your symbol for the added 7th on the Bdim is wrong.
B-D-F-A = Bm7b5, and the shorthand symbol is Bø7. The "ø" stands for "half-diminished", and the "7" is kind of superfluous: Bø and Bø7 mean the same thing.

The term "half-diminished", btw, is in comparison to the "full diminished" dim7 chord, which has two diminished intervals: 5th and 7th (B-F and B-Ab in Bdim7). Bm7b5 only has one dim interval (B-F). That's why "ø" is enough, because it already implies the 7th.

If there was such a chord as "B°Δ", it would be B-D-F-A# (not part of any scale common in western music).
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Old 04-24-2018, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimCA View Post
https://www.dropbox.com/s/67doy5axlj...Scale.pdf?dl=0

Like why the odd-ball diminished chord and why G7 is more common than C7 in key of C.
Hi JimCA

Based on a simple major scale, if you play simple triads (easiest to see on a keyboard) using only the naturally occurring notes in the triad, and starting with the root of the triad as the lowest note…
(1-3-5 or C-E-G) and progressing up through each pitch of the major scale…the 7th triad is 7-2-4 or B-D-F which is a half diminished chord not a shortened V7 chord.

This is how we derive the formula for chords associated with a major scale.

Here is a quick and brief (one minute long) YouTube video I did for my guitar students a few years back. I also put a small keyboard in their hands so they could see and play it for themselves and understand how simple chords are formed.



I IV & V are major (pitches 1-3-5, 4-6-8 and 5-7-9 form major chords)
ii iii and vi are minor (pitches 2-4-6, 3-5-7 & 6-8-10 form minor chords)
vii° is called a half diminished (pitches 7-9-11 form a half diminished chord)

And before anyone tries to explain to me that 9 is the same as 2, and 10 is the same as 3 an octave higher, we do regularly list and label extended chords as 9 chords, 11 chords, 13 chords etc.

Hope this helps explain why the chord/triad on the 7th pitch is a half diminished not a V7 chord.


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Old 04-24-2018, 12:06 PM
JimCA JimCA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fazool View Post
That chart/table to me was so convoluted as to be useless.
Fazool - I've updated headings to try to make things more obvious. Your pushback was useful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
Works OK, except your symbol for the added 7th on the Bdim is wrong.
B-D-F-A = Bm7b5, and the shorthand symbol is Bø7. The "ø" stands for "half-diminished", and the "7" is kind of superfluous: Bø and Bø7 mean the same thing.
JonPR - Thanks, I've updated to Bø7. I included superfluous 7 to indicate it's a weird 7th.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ljguitar View Post

Here is a quick and brief (one minute long) YouTube video I did for my guitar students a few years back. I also put a small keyboard in their hands so they could see and play it for themselves and understand how simple chords are formed.


lj - Thanks for that. Piano players sure have an advantage in mastering chords.
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Old 04-24-2018, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
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…lj - Thanks for that. Piano players sure have an advantage in mastering chords.
Hi Jim

You are welcome. Yes, keyboard based theory is easier to understand.

I've always recommended to people who want to learn 'guitar' theory, that they take a community college semester or two of basic music theory which is piano based. Knowing keyboard theory and how to read notation is like having a 'universal translator' with other musicians.

In fact in many bands and music groups I've been in, the fact that I read notes, and know theory has placed me as an interpreter.

I learned everything musical I could including solfeggio (both fixed and sliding 'Do'), Nashville Numbering, Figured Bass etc. These have equipped me to better fit in with other musicians and to speak the language they speak…which means we are up and playing music sooner.


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