#16
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Yes. In jazz charts, however, "7alt" is pretty common.
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"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen. |
#17
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Yeah. I'd think it's more rare, even in jazz charts. The example that comes to mind from the real book would be from something like "Here's That Rainy Day", where it occurs over a chord/melody combination which very explicitly outlines altered. That simply isn't the case most of the time. Usually there are options, but in that specific example, it's probably a good choice.
Last edited by mattbn73; 04-23-2018 at 11:15 AM. |
#18
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I popped open a copy of the Real Book just to see how long it took to find an alt chord. By song #2 (A Child is Born) you've got D7alt. Song #14 (All in Love is Fair) has A7alt. The use is pretty common on lead sheets. . |
#19
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I'm still confused though. Is the "alt" symbol used exclusively for dominant 7 chords? If so, as mentioned above, the root, third and seventh could not be altered. That basically leaves your 5th and your extensions that can be altered. Easy enough to write, I would think. And if the alteration is implied in the melody -- still easy enough to specify, I would think. So, are we saying the "alt" symbol is just intentionally vague? Is it just telling us rhythm cats "hey, its a dom chord, stupid, but add some extra tensions"? Makes sense I suppose, but if you're savvy enough to understand the implication, then why do you need to see it written? Do you really need to tell a jazz player to mess around with his dominant chords? (That's a joke...) An aside: I've heard some debate regarding specifically Real Book charts. Some complain that the chord symbols are too specific. Just because a tension is implied by the melody (and explicitly written on the chart), that doesn't mean you necessarily need to adhere to that harmony if you're comping or blowing a solo. Too-specific harmonies are too limiting, they say, and inhibit the freedom and creativity jazz musicians enjoy. Is the "alt" symbol is in keeping with that general idea...give the musicians more options? Great thread, I learned a thing or two. thanks again.
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https://www.christophervolak.com/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCen...TNrJcTiGu9aPkw Last edited by Guitar Slim II; 04-23-2018 at 07:45 PM. |
#20
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So I tried it out on the chart for "A Child is Born" -- (after listening to Thad Jones and then Bill Evans play it, has there ever been a more beautiful ballad?) And I'm still confused...subbing a D dominant for the "alt" chord towards the end of the tune sure "feels" right, despite the F nat. in the melody. It's pretty clear the F nat. should be interpreted as an E# (#9), and if you add the Bb (b13, also from the melody), that's a strong argument for calling it D7#9b13 -- a fairly common blues and jazz chord. Another way to interpret the chord is to spell the Bb as an A#, which would make it a #5#9. Either way it's the same chord tones, easily expressed in a conventional chord symbol. So I'm still not sure I understand what the "alt" symbol is actually telling me do.
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https://www.christophervolak.com/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCen...TNrJcTiGu9aPkw Last edited by Guitar Slim II; 04-24-2018 at 09:29 AM. |
#21
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IOW, it's not "telling you to do" anything specific. It's offering choices.
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"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen. |
#22
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So let me pose another question: In the "Child is Born" chart, why does it call for a "7alt" in that specific measure? The chart contains other altered chords -- aug7s, 7#9s etc. So why is that single chord, in that single location, different from the other chords in the chart? Why did the arranger call for a "7alt" chord at that particular point in the chart, and nowhere else? To put it another way: if it's about freedom and options, then why not apply the "7alt" to other dominant chords in the chart? If you want the the players come up with their own tensions, fine, but the why not make the whole chart that way, instead of one isolated chord? I get what folks are saying about general altered chords and keeping things open...but It's still not clear why the "alt" symbol is used in certain situations and not in others. Is it, as another member implied, just a vague, incomplete and possible lazy way to harmonize -- artistic considerations notwithstanding?
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https://www.christophervolak.com/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCen...TNrJcTiGu9aPkw Last edited by Guitar Slim II; 04-24-2018 at 04:26 PM. |
#23
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Anyway, determining what you play over a dominant chord isn't purely arbitrary. It's mostly to do with the harmony and melody which came before. Again, I think it's more about what NOT to play. Mixolydian or diatonic major doesn't work on every dominant chord. |
#24
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The "alt" symbol specifically refers to the "alternate scale"! which is the 7th mode of the melodic minor scale. This was actually mentioned at the top of the thread, but somehow I missed the fact that the mode is known as "THE Alternate Scale". Now the "alt" symbol makes sense to me (even if I can't jam on the 7th mode of melodic minor). It has a specific function, and tells the performer something important. And since it seems as much an instruction for the soloist as it is for the accompaniest, that would explain why it's more common in jazz charts than song sheets. Thanks. I'll sleep easier tonight.
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https://www.christophervolak.com/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCen...TNrJcTiGu9aPkw Last edited by Guitar Slim II; 04-24-2018 at 11:54 PM. |
#25
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The idea is that any jazz musician seeing "7alt" knows the options available, and doesn't need to be told, because they'll look at the context first. They'll probably be playing the melody before they play the chords. I.e., you could interpret "7alt" as shorthand for "use whatever alterations suit the melody" - because the writer is too lazy to write them out. (Yes, jazz chord chart writers really are that lazy: how else you do explain the use of "-" instead of "m". "Oh man, that "m" takes too much time, I'm just gonna do a dash..." ) Sometimes, context is very prescriptive, but in that case you'd probably see the alterations spelled out. "7#5#9" or whatever. In other cases, the melody might well dictate which alterations fit, while you'd be free to choose others when soloing. Sometimes jazz charts actually offer two choices for a chord at any point - one that fits the melody, one as a second option for soloing. Chord symbols are often suggestive rather than prescriptive.
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"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen. |
#26
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"7alt" is short for "altered dominant". As I said earlier, the "7th mode of melodic minor" is a handy memory aid for some, but the scale doesn't derive from that. It derives from altering the 5th and 9th of the chord, which is done (in turn) to give all those voice-leading options.
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"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen. |
#27
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Awesome info! Thank you!
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