BOSE L1 Model 2 System

[zb0430]

Heard a Bose recently. Was not thoroughly impressed. I've heard it used in a solo jazz setting, and an acoustic setting now. I'm sorry to be offensive, but the common complaints about Bose products remains true, to my ears, at least. Bose: no highs, no lows. It was a bit of a middy mess, with that anemic "bass" from the bass module (it was low-midrange mud, not bass). It had a characteristic muddiness, compressed midrange. That's what i've come to hear in most, if not all, Bose products.

+1 on the apparent lack of published specifications. The claim that specs are for engineers is.... silly. They're for customers that want to be informed too. Third party ratings on specs are always nice, as well, and it generally takes getting into the higher echelon of audio to start finding third party reviews... just stating a fact there.

I'm gonna have to side with sdelsolray and rmyAddison on this one. I haven't heard anything from the Bose that really made it sound any better than most other "much" cheaper portable PA systems, and I didn't notice any coverage benefits that were very dramatic. Maybe that was me expecting too much from the hype, or the particular rooms I have heard them in. It just seems to me, like rmyAddison said, the Bose marketing team is the one to thank for it's popularity, and has made it popular to those more eager for ease of use and presets, not necessarily any better sound quality. I don't know how to put this without sounding offensive, but to an undiscerning ear, overly processed signals often sound smoother and more compressed, often called "high quality". That's just not so. Sound is subjective, yes, but cmon... Who's gonna pick the sound from a POD acoustic processor vs. sdelsolray's setup? I'm not trying to call the Bose a glorified POD, either, but it does share some characteristics to my ear, like the midrange compression and saturation and the slight artifacts. Comparatively, it's just a choked, lifeless, dynamically unflattering sound, IMHO, and to many others...


Maybe alot of others have had much more success with the unit than the ones I heard, and if so, I'm glad you're liking it and it's working for you. I just don't think it's my cup of tea, either... I think it's another overpriced piece of gear that Bose has marketed effectively. More bang for that amount of buck is to be had, IMHO. Yes, the Bose is not the worst system to be had by any stretch of the imagination, and maybe it's optimal for alot of people. I guess, personally, I just was expecting more considering the hype I'd heard, and considering I could have some seriously nice gear given the cost of the system.

As to your experience with SLS Line Arrays, sdelsolray, we have two at our church with some flown subs (I know, might sound strange for a larger permanent venue, but it produced good results). When the system is EQ'ed well (meaning, someone good is mixing that week), they're a real treat to listen to and play through. Ever heard of Danley Soundlabs? Might wanna check his stuff out... it's really innovative design-wise and sounds incredible, so I hear, and is relatively cheap for upper-echelon stuff. I haven't heard them myself, but he makes conventional PA stuff that is supposedly very powerful, tight but warm, and accurate.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by dberch

Holy Carp, sdelsolray! Do you need a pilot's license to fly that thing? Just curious, how much do you have to tweak all that from room to room? Or from one guitar to another?

It certainly is beautiful, and I bet it sounds amazing.

This has been a great thread to read. I just picked up a Model 1 Bose, but will keep my "less than average" PA until the jury is in. I'll be using the Bose for acoustic solo and duo shows, indoors and out.

David

Hi David. I'm flying without a license. I don't really tweak things much from room to room, or guitar to guitar. Maybe 2-3 dB on some of he eq with some Q and frequency tweaks.

I have the rig configured differently now than when those pics were taken. It's simpler now. I just have the Pendulum SPS-1, the TC Electronics M2000 effects unit and the Hafler P3000 power amp in one 4 space rack. The other units, the Drawmer DL241 compressor/limiter/gate/expander, the Korg tuner, the Rane 30 band stereo graphic eq and the power strip have been removed to eliminate the second 4 space rack (less to haul and hook up). The Drawmer was helpful, but the others didn't do much for the sound. I'm planning on swapping out the M2000 for a M3000 and I might replace the Halfer with a nicer amp, like a Bryston 4B SST.

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by zb0430

...I'm sorry to be offensive, but the common complaints about Bose products remains true, to my ears, at least. Bose: no highs, no lows. It was a bit of a middy mess, with that anemic "bass" from the bass module (it was low-midrange mud, not bass). It had a characteristic muddiness, compressed midrange. That's what i've come to hear in most, if not all, Bose products.

I'm not sure what you mean by compressed midrange. Are you saying that compression varies as a function of frequency band?

+1 on the apparent lack of published specifications. The claim that specs are for engineers is.... silly. They're for customers that want to be informed too. ...

Bose's claim is not that specifications are for engineers. The company's position is that standard measurements are not a good indicator of how the system actually sounds. Whether one agrees with them or not, it is an important distinction.

I don't know how to put this without sounding offensive, but to an undiscerning ear, overly processed signals often sound smoother and more compressed, often called "high quality".

The uninitiated may favor a station broadcasting a more compressed signal when tuning a car radio and there are guitarists who prefer the harsh tone of a piezoelectric bridge pickup over that of a higher fidelity pickup system but to assume that the reason guitarists like the Bose PA is because they have tin ears is absurd.

I wish I could conduct a double blind comparison of the Bose system with a comparably priced conventional PA.

[fredgold52]

This has become quite a discussion of sound systems, and most of it is over my head. I guess I'm am very spoiled as I get to play at an open mic thing every Friday in a decent room with a new L1, a 414 CE and a Rainsong w-1000. Everyone who hears the set up loves it. Bose has done something very good with this system and I for one appreciate it.

[davidl13]

I heard a bose LI series 1 with 2 bass modules on each side (used in stereo) in a dj rig for a dance/disco party with a dance floor that held about 250-300. I was amazed at how even the volume and eq was from front row to back row and corner to corner...far superior than a "typical" speaker on poles. I consider myself as having critical ears, however i must admit i expected a DJ whop has no clue how to do anything but kill the front row so the back row can hear, so what i got was a very pleasant surprise (compared to my expectation). There were 300 active listeners and about 700 mingling the larger room. It left my ears lacking for nothing and I was thankful i was not punished as is typical with DJ's (sorry, i am sure there are some good ones out there).
I was pleasantly surprised at how even and easy to listen to the music was. It lead me to investigate the series 2 for guitar/vocal and i have yet to hear anything better for acoustic guitar and vocals together. I only tested at moderate levels.

[zb0430]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

I'm not sure what you mean by compressed midrange. Are you saying that compression varies as a function of frequency band?

Bose's claim is not that specifications are for engineers. The company's position is that standard measurements are not a good indicator of how the system actually sounds. Whether one agrees with them or not, it is an important distinction.

The uninitiated may favor a station broadcasting a more compressed signal when tuning a car radio and there are guitarists who prefer the harsh tone of a piezoelectric bridge pickup over that of a higher fidelity pickup system but to assume that the reason guitarists like the Bose PA is because they have tin ears is absurd.

I wish I could conduct a double blind comparison of the Bose system with a comparably priced conventional PA.

I figured my opinions would get some disagreement, but I'm sorry for not making it more clear that they are in fact, nothing but my personal opinions based on my experiences.

I never said that Bose claimed specs are for engineers. The point, however, was stated by a poster in this thread. I just wanted to disagree that specs aren't important in the least. I'm sorry for not making that distinction more clear. You are right, there, i just disagree with Bose's stance on the issue. They're perhaps the first indicator of accurately comparing equipment. I'm often uneasy when i can't find any true product specs on a product, and Bose is not very forthright with specs. Just a red flag to me, personally...

I also never meant to make a broad generalization that anyone who likes the Bose has tin ears. Sorry I came across that way. I do mean to say that many people who are not very discerning, not very experienced, and/or not very knowledgeable about audio are more prone to like things like Line6 POD products, which is the ToneMatch engine not a glorified POD with different types of parameters? It's a digital audio processing device. I meant to make that connection by saying that it was not likely that anyone with any experience would prefer a digitally processed signal to that of an equal quality analog component system, and in fact might be likely that the tone of a Bose system would be more likely accepted as "great" by someone in that position due to the very nature of the device. I suppose that's why I don't like the tone I hear from the Bose. it sounds processed, cause it is...

A double blind test would indeed be interesting. I'm sorry for coming across so harshly regarding the Bose system, and I do admit that my experience is very limited, and I have only had a chance to play with the system myself once in a store, not exactly the best environment to pass judgment. I do, however, stick to my guns, that I'm betting a component system of equal quality components would not only be cheaper, but likely sound better. just because it's a glorified "perfectly even" dispersal pattern doesn't mean the tone coming out is better than anything else. I don't know about the opinion or experiences of most, but when set up properly, from what I've heard it's generally pretty easy to get darn even, good coverage with a conventional system. Basically, my qualm is that the system isn't revolutionary, is very expensive for what it is, and hasn't impressed me yet. As always, YMMV.

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by zb0430

...I don't know about the opinion or experiences of most, but when set up properly, from what I've heard it's generally pretty easy to get darn even, good coverage with a conventional system. ...

Originally Posted by Cakes

...
As for whether a typical two speaker system can disperse sound as well as and L1, I'll just respectfully agree to disagree. ...

Conventional speaker systems have good, mid-field coverage but it is the long range propagation, without excessive, near-field volume, that makes a line array preferable.

See the graph in post #77, page six.

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by Cakes

Herb, when you say mid-field coverage, what do you mean? Are you referring to frequency range or position relative to the speaker?

Thanks,

John

I'm referring to the area represented by orange and red in the graphic I included in post #77.

[zb0430]

At church, we use a conventional system in our older sanctuary, a very good system with a Midas analog console. The new worship facility has an SLS line array setup with flown subs, and a digital console (digital consoles are getting very, very, very, very good...) The coverage in the two rooms is pretty much the same. If set up properly, i'm sorry, I just don't believe that graph. Where is it from? Who did the research? Is it from the Bose site? j/k, unless it is.... i understand the point of a line array system and can indeed hear good results from using them. But the Bose L1 has none of the benefits that a mounted line array has, unless of course your L1 is quite a bit higher than you on stage. Otherwise, seems to me that the L1 is hitting people at head level and below, thrown out in a straight line across the venue. A line array is effective due to it's positioning and tilting, but I don't see the possibility for the L1 to really replicate that.

[lodi_55]

Originally Posted by zb0430

At church, we use a conventional system in our older sanctuary, a very good system with a Midas analog console. The new worship facility has an SLS line array setup with flown subs, and a digital console (digital consoles are getting very, very, very, very good...) The coverage in the two rooms is pretty much the same. If set up properly, i'm sorry, I just don't believe that graph. Where is it from? Who did the research? Is it from the Bose site? j/k, unless it is....

I really don't care about the Bose "marketing". Nor do I care about the lack of specs. Yeah, "no highs, now lows". That's been overplayed.

What I care about is my parter and I (acoustic duo)producing what seems (to our ears) be better than anything we've ever heard in bar, restaurant, small club. Period. And you know what? The crowds we play for are saying the same thing. People come up to us during the breaks and tell us how clear the sounds is and how other acts sound "muddy" by comparison. Perhaps they're uneducated? I dunno....

So Bose can never publish a spec, the Bose-bashers can keep throwing out the same stale rhetoric. When comes right down to it, a majority of the players I know who own the L1, as well as their listening audience, seem pretty happy with things. Perhaps we lack that "discerning ear" you mentioned.

[zb0430]

Originally Posted by lodi_55

I really don't care about the Bose "marketing". Nor do I care about the lack of specs. Yeah, "no highs, now lows". That's been overplayed.

What I care about is my parter and I (acoustic duo)producing what seems (to our ears) be better than anything we've ever heard in bar, restaurant, small club. Period. And you know what? The crowds we play for are saying the same thing. People come up to us during the breaks and tell us how clear the sounds is and how other acts sound "muddy" by comparison. Perhaps they're uneducated? I dunno....

So Bose can never publish a spec, the Bose-bashers can keep throwing out the same stale rhetoric. When comes right down to it, a majority of the players I know who own the L1, as well as their listening audience, seem pretty happy with things. Perhaps we lack that "discerning ear" you mentioned.

Before getting so defensive/aggressive, please note in my other posts where I clarified what obviously came across in a bad way to you... I in no way meant to say anyone who likes the Bose undoubtedly has tin ears, and did not imply that you aren't getting good sound from your unit. Please remember the golden rule here at AGF, as I'm not trying to call you uneducated, undiscerning, or anything else of the sort.

I'm not doubting your claims about your sound. In fact, congratulations. I'm basing my opinions on the few instances that I have heard the system in action, and heard similar things in each system, as well as the one I tried in GC's acoustic room (hardly a good sampling or testing ground, I admitted earlier). These are my opinions, nothing more.

As far as Bose products in general, I find a lot of the aforementioned characteristics in many of their devices. They favor a mid range sound, IMHO. (Yes, I own a few Bose products that I don't like all that much) That would make the Bose L1 ideal for a solo acoustic player, or duo, which apparently it is working well in your situation. I'm glad. In a thread about the opinions on the Bose L1, I've found the exact opposite of what you are claiming about Bose "bashers". The few people that do have qualms with the company or system are apparently not allowed to voice them, and are automatically the bad guys. I don't want to be presented in a negative light like I'm arrogantly considering myself superior and more discerning. That's not the case, please understand that. I just didn't like what I heard and felt like voicing my opinions. I still hold my opinion about the Bose based on what I've heard from it, but as i mentioned before, that could change at any given point granted i heard something otherwise from the system myself. I just wanted to point out that given the nature of the digital processing Bose puts in the L1 that is apparent in the sound coming out, I wasn't betting my opinion would shift. Who knows, though... (Why do you think they don't want you using anything but they're speakers, other than money? The unit is processed and tuned to them. And we established they're not the greatest in the world. I don't want processing and compensation, I want good speakers and good sources coming in that sound good flat, with minimal tweaking, not "pre-tweaked for your convenience"...)

I wanted healthy conversation, not personal attacks and sarcastic, condescending undertones thrown at me. I didn't mean to throw them at you either, if in fact you believe I did. For that, I am sorry.

[lodi_55]

Originally Posted by zb0430

I wanted healthy conversation, not personal attacks and sarcastic, condescending undertones thrown at me. I didn't mean to throw them at you either, if in fact you believe I did. For that, I am sorry.

Personal attacks? Agressive??? Let me say that the condescending overtones were plentifiul in some of your posts. But let's move on.

Here's my only problem with issues people have surrounding Bose. If someone comes in and says that they don't like the quality of sound, or the technology itself, that's cool.. But too often that not, there are references to the slick "Bose Marketing" and the "lack of published specs". That's a huge red flag that there is bias towards the company itself. At that point, the most articulate argument falls flat on its face.

Just my opinion.

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by lodi_55

...Here's my only problem with issues people have surrounding Bose. If someone comes in and says that they don't like the quality of sound, or the technology itself, that's cool.. But too often that not, there are references to the slick "Bose Marketing" and the "lack of published specs". That's a huge red flag that there is bias towards the company itself. At that point, the most articulate argument falls flat on its face.
Just my opinion.

That is a good point. It is one thing to prefer the sound of another product, quite another to be prejudiced to an absurd degree. The performance of a PA system is not dependent on the availability of specifications. The system will sound the same whether one has a specification sheet in hand or not.

Frankly, ever since the Bose 901 speakers came out, I've had a bit of a prejudice against their products but I was never so biased as to be unable to admit that some of their products are good.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

I have the rig configured differently now than when those pics were taken. It's simpler now. I just have the Pendulum SPS-1, the TC Electronics M2000 effects unit and the Hafler P3000 power amp in one 4 space rack. The other units, the Drawmer DL241 compressor/limiter/gate/expander, the Korg tuner, the Rane 30 band stereo graphic eq and the power strip have been removed to eliminate the second 4 space rack (less to haul and hook up). The Drawmer was helpful, but the others didn't do much for the sound. I'm planning on swapping out the M2000 for a M3000 and I might replace the Halfer with a nicer amp, like a Bryston 4B SST.

One quick question I believe I have seen your user name on one or more of the engineering boards so I am jumping to the conclusion that you are a rec. engineer.... With that mind I think I understand the set of criteria for your PA. My question is this , you said that Drawmer was helpful but no longer use it, but would you use it if it fit into your 1 rack that you take to gigs. OOPS guess thats more than one question maybe i should run for office Thanks Kev

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by KevWind

One quick question I believe I have seen your user name on one or more of the engineering boards so I am jumping to the conclusion that you are a rec. engineer.... With that mind I think I understand the set of criteria for your PA. My question is this , you said that Drawmer was helpful but no longer use it, but would you use it if it fit into your 1 rack that you take to gigs. OOPS guess thats more than one question maybe i should run for office Thanks Kev

The Drawmer is a very good unit. It like it quite a bit. Since I play solo fingerstyle, I don't really "need" a compressor/limiter. I used it for some time and it did allow for a slightly higher volume before feedback in some situations. The gate also automatically cut off the signal when I wasn't playing which was nice, although I have a footswitch that does the same thing. Sonically, it affected the sound a bit, and in some ways I didn't like that, although in other ways it was acceptable. I've just reduced my rack sapce requirements to 4 instead of 8. I'm happy with it that way for now.