Piano history

[whvick]

I know this is AGF, but a lot of you guys know pianos I bet.
So my luthier has a 9foot grand piano buried under a lot of stuff In his shop. The last time I was there I took one of my surrogate grandsons with me. ( he was wanting advice on making a cedar box for their wedding vows next month). So Isaac opens the keyboard cover, sits down and starts playing quite well. And the piano sounds great, even under a mountain of junk.
Fast forward a week and we are visiting a friend of mine. I tell a few of my guitar pick stories for a laugh. My friend says he has a Seagull and I say they are great guitars. He said his passion was piano. Said he had a console, but he really wanted a grand...not just any grand, but a Steinway! Then he says he will never afford a Steinway.
I tell him about the grand in the wood shop and he is interested. I ask the luthier who does not
Want to sell as it sounds so good. And he says that it was built around 1900, and our
Local piano tuner is really impress with it.
So now to question...I reviewed Kimball history and they were first really mass producers, but what I read said the old ones were very good. When we bought a console 35 years ago the Kimball brand was not as respected, so we bought a Baldwin.
Question to you piano guys? Were the old Kimballs good? How do they compare to modern pianos? Is Yamaha the most for the money? General comments on piano brands are also welcome.
Just curious
Thanks

[Earl49]

We owned a 1920 Steinway Model O (~6 feet) for 27 years but sold it recently. It was a stellar example even among Steinway's. Steinway is one of the few brands of acoustic piano that retains much value over time, which means that even used ones don't come cheap. If a Steinway is not an option then I would probably go with Kawai, then Yamaha. (I personally like the tone and voicing of Kawai a little better). Honestly, I don't know much about the old Baldwin (but I recall hearing decent things) or Kimball, or the numerous other century old brands. Almost any grand of 6' or more will absolutely surpass any console or upright..... it's the physics of string length and sound board size.

According to an elderly piano restorer we talked to while shopping, look for something from the 1930-1935 period. When the Depression hit and sales plummeted, the factory had to cut back to only the best master craftsmen.

[brencat]

I went through this in early 2019 when we finally bought a baby grand for the house. My daughter plays, and occasionally my wife. After investigating used options, and discovering all the potential pitfalls and unknowns related to use and (lack of) care, we found a great dealer and opted to buy new.

A word about Steinway: they are not the Alpha and the Omega, and they are not the same company they were many decades ago. They attained their fame largely after WW2 when many of the European brands' factories were bombed to smithereens. Steinway seized the opportunity and went to all the Broadway houses and concert halls and offered them a Steinway for free, on the stipulation that no other brand would be purchased or used there. They were one of the few who had not been significantly harmed by the war, and as such they made the most of their great luck by cornering the market. The rest is history.

My daughter dislikes Steinway and thinks their playability is very stiff compared to other brands. Also, be VERY careful when buying an older piano, especially a Steinway, as very few people will rebuild these anymore and it costs a fortune (think 25k). Contrary to what you may have heard, there is a definite lifespan to a quality piano and it is about ~ 40 years before a rebuild is required. So that 1950 Steinway you think you're stealing for 5k that has been in someone's house or garage unplayed for years, may end up costing you 30k in the end, if you can even find someone to rebuild it.

We looked at Yamaha and Kawai, the two mass produced Japanese brands, and they were reasonably priced and nice but just "okay" to "pretty good" sounding. Ultimately we went to the next price point and bought an Estonia baby grand. Estonia is all hand made, uses German components, the fit and finish is impeccable, the playability is forgiving, and you get a LOT for your money. The newer pianos say "Laul Estonia" on the inside, but after many improvements Dr. Laul made to the brand in the last decade, the more recent years are the most desireable.

The Estonia tone is to die for. My daughter played a bunch of different brands and sizes in the 5' 6" up to 6' 10" category (the max we had room for), including a 100k Bluthner which was incredible sounding, but the Estonia was 95% of the way there for substantially less money. And just like finding a gem of a guitar out of a dealer's full stock, we chose our specific piano after playing it. (Well, after my daughter played it and made it sing like the angels).

Decide what you are able to spend, but don't look for the bargain. You may just end up getting burned big time.

Happy hunting!

[Tico]

Unfortunately when it comes to pianos, ignorance and (worse) misinformation is widespread, but the book below is the antidote.
Salesfolk at piano dealers can be the worst sources of information, as this book explains.

The book you must read is, "The Piano Book, Buying & Owning a New or Used Piano" by Larry Fine - $18.99 on Amazon Prime with free 1-day delivery.

https://www.amazon.com/Piano-Book-Bu.../dp/1929145012

Brencat is right about Steinway.
There are around 8 better piano brands from Europe, which you'll read about in The Piano Book.
Also, piano lifespan is about the same as that of the human body.
But over time a piano's condition depends on how much use, abuse, and neglect it got, its care and feeding over time, and few pianos get the care all pianos need, starting with tuning by a competent tech at least twice a year and, in many geographic regions, humidity control.
... see www.pianolifesaver.com
Even rebuilding itself can be a can of worms - as you'll read in The Piano Book.

Steinway does have an excellent recipe for making a piano.
Unfortunately many of their cooks don't follow it, or follow it poorly at Steinways union-shop in NY.
Fortunately Steinway has another, better, factory in Hamburg, Germany.
Hamburgs are far better at executing the recipe, resulting in better consistency, and quality.
I've toured their NY factory twice.

A competent piano tech can do that prep, which ALL pianos could use - at least a check up and partial prep, or the whole monte.
ANY piano can be improved by this, though expensive - though in some places it's not easy to locate a tech competent to do the work.
While no guarantee, the first step I'd try going to www.ptg.org and looking for an RPT, registered piano technician, in your ZIP code.
Your piano, any piano regardless of brand, age, or price, can almost certainly play better and sound better than it does now.
To run their best cars need more than gas, and pianos need more than tuning.

There's a shrewd saying in among piano techs, "Steinway make the best piano MARKETING in the world".
Besides strong arming concert venues and record labels to keep other equal and better brands out of the public eye, they get concert pianists to not be seen playing other brands.

Most Steinways are not bought by players, rather buy rich folk who use them as status symbols as decorating appointments for their fancy homes. Many never get played.
But bless their little ol rich hearts for keeping Steinway in business.
This is why they don't get prep at the factory or at the dealer unless the buyer is well-informed and demands it, which astonishingly is necessary even for Steinway's largest most expensive models, the B and their concert grand model D.

Brencat wrote, "My daughter dislikes Steinway and thinks their playability is very stiff compared to other brands".
Lack of prep is almost certainly why many Steinways feel like pushing a freight train up a hill.
99% chance that piano only needs a good tech to prep it properly - since the Steinway factory didn't bother.

What's prep? It's short for preparation.
Pianos are complex with thousands of parts.
Each worker at the factory may do a perfect job of, say, gluing hammers onto their shafts, or fitting the strings to the hitch pins, or chiseling the notches in the bridge.
But those are all separate people, often expert at only their one task.
After all the parts are installed, it takes a master to do a a long list of things in a specific order to get all the parts to work together for the best overall tone and feel from the piano.

IOW, prep is the last two weeks, or so, of extremely expensive tweaking of everything in the piano by the highest-paid most-senior technicians.
All the 8 best European brands get it at the factory, including Steinway's Hamburg factory.
Europeans as a group are much-better informed about pianos and would not put up with what American buyers let NY Steinway get away with.

[Tico]

Back to Kimball ...

FWIW, here's The Piano Book's entry on Kimball - fourth revision, first printing 2001.
Note: It ends saying Kimball still owns Bösendorder, but in 2008 Bösie was sold to Yamaha.

K1.jpgK2.jpg

Below is Pierce Piano Atlas' entry on Kimball ... useful for verifying the date of the piano's serial number.

PK1.jpgPK2.jpg

[Mooh]

My church has a Heintzman that I really like. I'm not much of a player but I do get some time on it periodically. The room and positioning help of course, big old gothic revival design interior, but it has a lovely tone and action. I used to have a thing for a Yamaha grand but I haven't recent experience with it.

Some piano restoration friends had a Steinway for sale a couple of years ago but I seriously disliked the action and the tone was boxey, for lack of a better term.

Wish I could remember what Oscar Peterson played when I saw him, the tone was mind blowing.

[Bob Womack]

My roommate in college had minor piano tech experience and was asked to rebuild the practice pianos for the music department. As a result I spent a couple of years with every horizontal surface in our dorm room covered with piano actions being torn down and rebuilt. After college he went to school for it and went on to become a piano tech for a huge metropolitan Steinway dealer and their lead artist tech.


Bob

[nickv6]

I'm a piano tech in UK so I can't comment on USA pianos but I would recommend you (the OP) post your query at
Piano World Piano Forums
where you will find much helpful comment and knowledge. It's a piano version of this site really.
Oh, and bear in mind that you need a good couple of feet sitting space at a grand, so a 9 foot grand needs a helluva space in your house!
Nick

[M19]

In the late 90's we were in the market for a piano for our youngest to learn on and hopefully love and keep when she started her adult life.

We ended up with Boston baby grand. We were sold: "Designed by Steinway, built by Kawai." Cost us $14.5k if I recall. It's a gorgeous piano and to my ears a very lush/rich tone, whereas the Kawai branded piano seemed a little harsh and strident.

The youngest is in Grad school out east, and I don't know if she'll ever take possession. I hear that the market for used pianos is "you can't give them away."

[Music-N-Yarn]

Interesting thread. I have a very old, severely neglected Schumann baby grand. Eventually I will get someone in to tune it, and look it over. They are probably going to tell me stuff I do not want to hear. If that is the case, Kawai hybrids look interesting.

[Earl49]

Originally Posted by M19

....I hear that the market for used pianos is "you can't give them away."

That is true for anything that does not have a famous brand name associated with it. Most people are downsizing or converting to digital keyboards (I know they aren't as good but they do save space and have other advantages). If we didn't have a Steinway, the only option would have been donating it to a local church - assuming we could find one willing to take it. An analogy is selling a Martin guitar versus a typical 70's MIJ dreadnought.

The person who bought ours has two PhD's - one in music performance and another in music therapy. She played everything up to $140K at the local Steinway dealer, then came back to our house and played ours again for 15 minutes...... and happily got out her checkbook.

Originally Posted by nickv6

.....Oh, and bear in mind that you need a good couple of feet sitting space at a grand, so a 9 foot grand needs a helluva space in your house!

Also true. The main reason that we sold our Steinway was that even a 6 footer took up more than a quarter of our smaller living room in the new house. The old house had a huge living room with cathedral ceilings that were nearly 18 feet on the high side, which was awesome for the piano sound.

Originally Posted by brencat

After investigating used options, and discovering all the potential pitfalls and unknowns related to use and (lack of) care, we found a great dealer and opted to buy new.....

A word about Steinway: they are not the same company they were many decades ago..... Also, be VERY careful when buying an older piano, especially a Steinway, as very few people will rebuild these anymore and it costs a fortune (think 25k)......if you can even find someone to rebuild it.

Decide what you are able to spend, but don't look for the bargain. You may just end up getting burned big time.

Good advice! Get a tech that you trust to inspect any used piano that you are considering. Our piano needed a cabinet refinish -- the lacquer looked like book leather from sitting in a music teachers's sunny living room window for 35 years before we bought it. But it was well maintained, played regularly, and tuned twice a year. Mechanically it was in very good condition but it wasn't a shiny piece of furniture. We had the action overhauled once about 15 years ago, but I don't recall what that cost. Refinishing the cabinet would have been $15K plus another $2K to restring it during the process. And ours did not have any pin block or other major mechanical issues.

[DCCougar]

Originally Posted by Earl49

...If a Steinway is not an option then I would probably go with Kawai, then Yamaha....

I married into a Kawai upright. I forget the model number. It is pretty spectacular.

[ruby50]

I have a friend who is VERY good at the piano. He bought a Steinway A3 (small grand) about 2005 for $7,000, spent $14,000 to have it rebuilt, and today they go for about $35,000. It is spectacular. His wife likes to lay underneath it while it plays, so I tried that, and it is magical.

Ed

[Wags]

All grand pianos are definitely not created equal - just like guitars. And like guitars each manufacturer has different product lines which vary significantly. I have a Yamaha C3 which I traded a Yamaha U1 upright for, along with a buttload of cash. I study jazz and the C3 (now CX3) is considered by many, myself included, to be a great jazz instrument that shines in small ensemble situations. Herbie Hancock insists on a Fazioli when he preforms. They are fabulous instruments, if you're willing to lay out several hundred thousand bucks.

Yamaha has the G series which is less expensive but has significant compromises in construction to save cost. They have now replaced the C series with the CX series which emerged after they purchased Bosendorf and incorporates some of their design features. If you're inclined toward the Steinway, which are sort of the Martins of pianos, and indeed wonderful, you could consider their Boston line which are designed by Steinway and made in Indonesia or Japan by Kawai. Or Kawai, which are similar to Yamahas but more affordable.

Just like with guitars size and components makes a big difference. As an example consider string length, especially in the bass region. A longer bass string produces a better fundamental. I wouldn't want anything smaller than 6 feet. They also "play in" like a guitar and develop a richer tone over time. The room they are in is another big factor that contributes to the sound. Since they are a large investment one should do a lot of homework before deciding.

[whvick]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

My roommate in college had minor piano tech experience and was asked to rebuild the practice pianos for the music department. As a result I spent a couple of years with every horizontal surface in our dorm room covered with piano actions being torn down and rebuilt. After college he went to school for it and went on to become a piano tech for a huge metropolitan Steinway dealer and their lead artist tech.


Bob

Hi Bob,
You are a wealth of info!
Did your friend think Steinway lived up to the reputation?
What brand does he like best?
Thanks