Learning songs not in your mother tongue.

[Robin, Wales]

I pick up some of the solo slots at our Welsh MVC concerts each month. So I get a week or two's notice to learn a new song by heart. That's not too difficult if the song is in English - but usually, what's going to be appropriate, is to find something in Welsh.

For example: it's St David's Day on the 1 March and we have a concert. The choir master asked me yesterday to pick a Welsh folk song as a solo. So I've listened to Cerys Mathew's version of Sosban Fach (video above) and I think I will do something with that.

I've played around with it tonight and have worked out an arrangement for guitar and for clawhammer banjo - in Am rather than Dm to fit my voice. I think I like singing the song with the banjo better than the guitar, so I'll go with that.

Working out the song accompaniment and an instrumental break is pretty straight forward. But learning the words! Well, that's another matter entirely.

I have printed off 4 copies of the words and positioned them around the house and download them to my phone. I have key changed Cerys recorded version to Am in Audacity and saved that to my phone. Now I have a week to learn the words (and pronunciation).

If it was in English, then I would have it memorised pretty quickly. But in Welsh, a Brythonic language, it is far more difficult!!! Give me a Germanic or Romance language any day!

[Chipotle]

If you ever sang in a chamber or concert choir, you probably would have done songs in Latin, French, Italian, German, and maybe Spanish or a smattering of other languages. I think years of that is a part of the reason that my pronunciation is pretty good in many tongues--even if I have no idea what I'm saying!

You just have to learn phonetically, although if there are cognates is certainly makes things easier (and in choir, we usually got to use sheet music). And I never tackled Welsh before. Good luck!

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

That's not too difficult if the song is in English - but usually, what's going to be appropriate, is to find something in Welsh.

You would try Welsh. Andrew Latimer of the English band Camel was introducing his bass player, Colin Bass, at the Royal Albert Hall. He decided to include Colin's hometown in Wales in the introduction. He got to the town name and tried but balked and Colin stopped him and said, "No, you can't say it. You can no pronounce it."

I've been to Wales. Lovely country. My uncle flew Spitfires out of Hawarden, Flintshire up near Chester, during WWII. He died in a flying accident and is buried there. I've visited Tintirn Abbey and driven through the Brecon Beacons. Enchanting. I've even got an acquaintance from Aberystwyth, so I can say that.


But then there are the bi-lingual street signs. Oh, my. Not a chance.

Bob

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

... usually, what's going to be appropriate, is to find something in Welsh.

Is it though?
Will a Welsh audience admire and congratulate you for attempting their language? Or will they shake their heads at a badly accented attempt to ingratiate yourself with them?
After all, all Welsh speakers can also speak English. It's only fairly recently that English has (again) become a second language for some, Welsh returning to a proud first language do many.

If it was me, I would certainly want to perform a Welsh song or two, but I'd choose an English translation - perhaps apologising as I did so, but then I am English after all, and Welsh is a notoriously difficult language for English speakers.

If I hear a foreign singer singing in English - however badly - it doesn't bother me. In fact I prefer it, if I don't speak their language! But that's the point: all Welsh speakers understand English perfectly well. If I understood (say) French as well as that, then I would prefer to hear a French singer singing in French than attempt English badly. I would certainly not be offended that they hadn't tried to sing in my tongue!

But I'm only talking general feelings.

In fact, I'd say an ideal approach would be to sing in both languages: start off in English, but sing the last verse (or even two) in Welsh. I suspect that would go down better with the audience than doing the whole thing in either English or Welsh - and it would make your task a little easier!

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Is it though?
Will a Welsh audience admire and congratulate you for attempting their language? Or will they shake their heads at a badly accented attempt to ingratiate yourself with them?
After all, all Welsh speakers can also speak English. It's only fairly recently that English has (again) become a second language for some, Welsh returning to a proud first language do many.

If it was me, I would certainly want to perform a Welsh song or two, but I'd choose an English translation - perhaps apologising as I did so, but then I am English after all, and Welsh is a notoriously difficult language for English speakers.

If I hear a foreign singer singing in English - however badly - it doesn't bother me. In fact I prefer it, if I don't speak their language! But that's the point: all Welsh speakers understand English perfectly well. If I understood (say) French as well as that, then I would prefer to hear a French singer singing in French than attempt English badly. I would certainly not be offended that they hadn't tried to sing in my tongue!

But I'm only talking general feelings.

In fact, I'd say an ideal approach would be to sing in both languages: start off in English, but sing the last verse (or even two) in Welsh. I suspect that would go down better with the audience than doing the whole thing in either English or Welsh - and it would make your task a little easier!

Jon, you make some good points.

The Welsh language is beautiful. I sing in it all the time with the choir. And I stand next to a retired Welsh language tutor in the top tenors, and get him to correct me at every practice. My problem is memorising lyrics in Welsh. The syntax of the language is complex - to the point where the Welsh speakers in the choir can find it difficult to translate some sentences into English. Words can have different meanings in different situations - and there are lots of mutations that don't follow any "rules". I can best describe it as poetic rather than literal - it is a language of metaphors.

I'm slightly dyslexic which doesn't help! My wife says that I'm the only person she knows who can correctly answer crossword clues verbally but can't then write them down!!! The spell check on my laptop is my best friend.

So that's why I find memorising Welsh difficult. I sort of need to think in Welsh to remember the words - and that's difficult (but not impossible).

Culturally, Welsh learners are very much encouraged within Wales. This didn't used to be the case when I was younger but it certainly is now.

BTW - the Welsh and English mix of verses in folk songs is something I have done recently at concerts with Myfanwy and Ar Lan y Mor. It did work well.

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

You would try Welsh. Andrew Latimer of the English band Camel was introducing his bass player, Colin Bass, at the Royal Albert Hall. He decided to include Colin's hometown in Wales in the introduction. He got to the town name and tried but balked and Colin stopped him and said, "No, you can't say it. You can no pronounce it."

I've been to Wales. Lovely country. My uncle flew Spitfires out of Hawarden, Flintshire up near Chester, during WWII. He died in a flying accident and is buried there. I've visited Tintirn Abbey and driven through the Brecon Beacons. Enchanting. I've even got an acquaintance from Aberystwyth, so I can say that.


But then there are the bi-lingual street signs. Oh, my. Not a chance.

Bob

Bob, Wales is a lovely country and it is my home now. I've been quite itinerant having done a full military career but feel that I have definitely "landed".


I may yet play the song on guitar. I'm really happy with my arrangements on both guitar and banjo (slightly different chord structures on each of them!). I may drop the key to Abm or Gm. I've not decided on that yet.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

Jon, you make some good points.

The Welsh language is beautiful. I sing in it all the time with the choir. And I stand next to a retired Welsh language tutor in the top tenors, and get him to correct me at every practice.

Ah, well then! You're in a good place for this.

(TBH I only just noticed the comma in your ID. I had assumed Wales was your surname, and was going to make the obvious joke... )

[hubcapsc]

I remember trying to learn a song with french lyrics that is on a
James Taylor album from the 70s... I wanted to know what I was
saying... I remember having to expend a pre-Internet amount
of effort translating the words...

-Mike

Originally Posted by Chipotle

If you ever sang in a chamber or concert choir, you probably would have done songs in Latin, French, Italian, German, and maybe Spanish or a smattering of other languages. I think years of that is a part of the reason that my pronunciation is pretty good in many tongues--even if I have no idea what I'm saying!

You just have to learn phonetically, although if there are cognates is certainly makes things easier (and in choir, we usually got to use sheet music). And I never tackled Welsh before. Good luck!

[Robin, Wales]

I went for a cycle up the coast road this afternoon. With the lyrics taped to my handlebars. It gives me an hour or so of completely undisturbed lyric learning!!!

[Charlie Bernstein]

I used to play with a Congolese soukous artist, Bernard Tshimongoley. The band had to chime in occasionally. I remember one refrain, in Tshiruba:

Mah weh! Ma weh!
Moom poppaluka mishcom beh!
Mwishi mah cotonga belah!

I have no idea what it meant. The guy really threw himself into it, though.

[zuzu]

I learned "Oro Se Do Bheatha 'Bhaile" years ago because I love it. I sang it at my best friend's wake, but never "performed" it. I've taught it to all my grandchildren, they love it too and never forget it.

[Robin, Wales]

I had to learn African Prayer in Xhosa and Welsh for the concert in the video above at the Royal Albert Hall. The song is at 2hr 36 minutes. I't was a great experience singing in such a big choir - and there was a lot of Welsh to learn!!!

[zuzu]

That is simply awesome Robin! What an experience!

[jwellsy]

Is a Pict, Welsh?
I don't think I've ever seen these lyrics written down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYfxdFZkM5Y&t=13s

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by jwellsy

Is a Pict, Welsh?
I don't think I've ever seen these lyrics written down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYfxdFZkM5Y&t=13s

It was thought to be another Brythonic language, so alinged to Welsh, but it hasn't been spoken in Briton for 1000 years.