I Can't Get No Relief

[Tedster]

Well, maybe too much?

This is a beautiful sounding Guild DV4 spruce top and mahogany purchased at a shop almost 20 years ago, never even played it before I bought it, just told the guy I wanted a better guitar without spending too much money. He asked what kind of music I liked. Said Bob Dylan and Neil Young. It sat in a case for a long time.

Anyway, I got to measuring the string height at the 12th fret and it was quite low, and a little buzzy.

From my understanding, the Truss rod purpose is neck relief, not string height?
I did loosen the truss at concert pitch and got everything to "spec" - 6th E at 12th fret 7/64th or just shy of 1/8th of an inch. Intonation seems fine, volume better and much better sustain and it just sounds a lot better all around.

But if it matters, I put a straight edge down the neck and it's got enough relief to drive a truck under. I can shoot some photos with phone tomorrow I guess. It's also a little tough to play compared to before, I spent a couple hours with it because the tone or resonance was so much better, really put it through the paces with Drop D tuning, 1/2 step down, DADGAD, Open E, standard tuning etc. Using Martin 80/20 bronze

I guess my question is, do I really want a taller saddle, and a straighter neck or? It sounds good, that's the main thing.

[mirwa]

It really sounds like you need someone that knows what there doing to do a setup for you, ask around your local area.

There is so much more involved than simply a measurement at the 12th, the truss rod sets relief but it also affects string heights, you need nut height set correctly, bridge height correct, saddle height correct, saddle and nut profile correct, neck angle correct and relief correct, plus condition of frets and fretboard to obtain a good action. If you don't have all these perfect then you need a trained person to identify ways of still achieving a playable guitar and working around existing problems

Steve

You'd be amazed at how much easier it is to play with a proper setup - level frets, minimal relief, and a 12th fret action height that suits your style. Personally, I find playing guitars with excessive relief quite tedious. Even without buzzing, it feels like I'm fighting every string. I like medium strings and I like some "feedback" from the strings, but excess relief produces too much of a good thing.

[Outhouse]

Mirwa's advise is dead on.


You could have the right height, and just unlevel frets, and now you jacked up relief guessing.

Originally Posted by Tedster

I guess my question is, do I really want a taller saddle,.

You might need one, yes. What is the measurement after proper relief adjustment?

and a straighter neck or?

Sounds like you adjusted way to much relief ,,,, so yes.


Here is how I set one up at home.

First string up guitar and adjust truss rod/relief so that you have just the slightest gap no more then a business card, usually a hair less in the middles of the frets with string pushed down on first and last fret .

THEN and only then, measure string height at the 12'th fret, and it should be a little more then a quarter on the low E.

I will use a hard pick on the first fret to check nut string height there, at that point, the pick should touch the strings but not lift it

That is all after I level and polish all frets.



For fine tuning.

I start with 5-6/64 at the 12th. [adjusting saddle]

And I lower my nut height last so only a thin pick fits under the strings on the first fret. [filing nut slots].

[Tedster]

Yeah, no I took it in a while ago for a setup and they said, it was about as good a setup as will come from factory.

I expect seasonal changes in humidity would raise or lower string height or relief somewhat over the years. The action itself is now right at 7/64th E at 12th. It is remarkable the difference in sound quality, it is very responsive. I understand the need to have proper neck relief before worrying about string height. That's why I started the topic.

Can't really see the need to take it in again as this is pretty well documented online and it's not that tough. Was figuring you fine folks could walk me through inspection. I'd like to post a photo of the neck relief and such but cannot see how to post pics in user CP, is that a pay thing?

[Outhouse]

Well set relief so you have the smallest gap, after you take tension off strings.


There should be no buzz at all at 7/64.


For fret height, I take a sharpy and mark the top of the frets. I run a fine toothed metal file over the top gently at first and see that all black is removed evenly.

That way you know where your low or high spots are.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by Outhouse

First string up guitar and adjust truss rod/relief so that you have just the slightest gap no more then a business card, usually a hair less in the middles of the frets with string pushed down on first and last fret .

You hold the string down at the first fret and the body joint fret ... the frets on the fretboard extension aren't affected by the truss rod, so there is no point including them in the equation when measuring relief.

[Tedster]

Well I placed a steel rule straight edge running length of fretboard between D and G strings. Guitar tuned to comcert pitch, medium strings. Measured between straight edge and top of 7th fret - exceeds .025", closer to .030" Hm.

Who makes a drop in replacement nut and saddle for these? Alternatively, can some kind of shim be installed to raise the saddle height? String height at saddle isn't quite 1/2"

[Outhouse]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

You hold the string down at the first fret and the body joint fret ... the frets on the fretboard extension aren't affected by the truss rod, so there is no point including them in the equation when measuring relief.

Thank you, makes sense.

Not all my guitars have fret board extensions, but I did give advise in a forum where it is the norm, I stand corrected

I will measure the mistake to see how much it makes a difference.

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by Tedster

Well I placed a steel rule straight edge running length of fretboard between D and G strings. Guitar tuned to comcert pitch, medium strings. Measured between straight edge and top of 7th fret - exceeds .025", closer to .030" Hm.

Who makes a drop in replacement nut and saddle for these? Alternatively, can some kind of shim be installed to raise the saddle height? String height at saddle isn't quite 1/2"

The straightedge should rest on the 1st and 14th(body join) frets. There should be less than 0.01" clearance at the 7th fret, and the frets above the 14th should fall away from the straightedge. If they don't, some fretwork may be needed to get better action without buzzing.

[sfden1]

[QUOTE=Tedster;4604462]

Yeah, no I took it in a while ago for a setup and they said, it was about as good a setup as will come from factory.

Factory setups are rarely anything but high. That's the reason why it's good to take a guitar to an experienced repairman or tech, to get a proper set up Or, learn to do it yourself. Frank Ford's site, Frets.com, is a good place to start for info.

I'd like to post a photo of the neck relief and such but cannot see how to post pics in user CP, is that a pay thing?

No charge for posting photos. Go to the classifieds section here and at the top there should be a sticky that gives you instructions on how to post photos. Basically, you have to upload your photos to a photo sharing site such as photobucket, then copy it's url and paste it in the Insert Image (click on the yellow envelope looking icon at the top of the message box). Preview your post to make sure that you've done it right. Good to go.

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by Tedster

Can't really see the need to take it in again as this is pretty well documented online and it's not that tough. Was figuring you fine folks could walk me through inspection. I'd like to post a photo of the neck relief and such but cannot see how to post pics in user CP, is that a pay thing?

Then unfortunatley you will never truly know what a good setup is, and what a difference it can make to your guitar.

Steve

[Tedster]

[QUOTE=sfden1;4605887]

Originally Posted by Tedster

Factory setups are rarely anything but high. That's the reason why it's good to take a guitar to an experienced repairman or tech, to get a proper set up Or, learn to do it yourself. Frank Ford's site, Frets.com, is a good place to start for info.



No charge for posting photos. Go to the classifieds section here and at the top there should be a sticky that gives you instructions on how to post photos. Basically, you have to upload your photos to a photo sharing site such as photobucket, then copy it's url and paste it in the Insert Image (click on the yellow envelope looking icon at the top of the message box). Preview your post to make sure that you've done it right. Good to go.

Photos can't be uploaded directly to the site??

[Tedster]

Originally Posted by mirwa

Then unfortunatley you will never truly know what a good setup is, and what a difference it can make to your guitar.

Steve

I know exactly what a setup is. That isn't the issue. Now if you're claiming a proper setup can't be performed by _me_, well then maybe that's true! "Here There Be Dragons" eh?

What's the harm in learning anyway? It's not as fun as playing but, learning the nuts and bolts of guitars and their setup, and how things work ultimately makes one a better guitarist, I believe.

[mirwa]

It's not whether you can do it or not,

It's just You do not seem to understand the things involved in achieving a good setup. Its more than just a truss rod adjustment, or string height.

Would it not be better to get a guitar setup properly and then analyse how it was done at each location so you could replicate at a further date when required.

Far better, than go in using internet based information and possibly damage your guitar permanently.

To this end, even doing a proper setup does require some tooling, easily 4-5 times the cost of a setup, and that's just basic tools

Steve