What Preamp for my Collings > K&K Pure Western Mini > Soloamp?

[shawntp]

Hey folks, I have a Collings Om2h that I put a Pure Western Mini on. It sounds great without a preamp but I figure I would try out a preamp. I just bought a Soloamp and am starting to gig so I am not sure the best option.

I am aware of the K&K pickup impedance matching with their preamps so I am figuring those are the best options, though I know people also feel the K&K pickups work fine with other preamps and a little EQ adjustment.

As far as I understand the K&K Pure XLR preamp has enhancements over the standard Pure Preamp (which is 45% cheaper). Those are a phase switch and XLR output.

With the soloamp (which has a phase switch and anti-feedback control) I would basically only gain a balanced output into the amp. Is the Soloamp going to benefit from this at all or should just get the standard Pure preamp (or something else). Thanks!

[Joseph Hanna]

What's wrong with the very good pre-amp already in your SoloAmp??

[jonfields45]

The Baggs Venue does a great job with the K&K Mini. I play out in a duo and we both use the Venue with the K&K Mini, Fishman Matrix Infinity, and a latest Taylor Expression across all our guitars. I find the foot switchable tuner/mute and the foot switchable boost really useful in my duo. The notch filter works extremely well (a big plus for the K&K when using floor monitors) and I find the equalization at my feet hard to live with out (more so for the Fishman where I roll off the high end a little, but in some situations a little bass roll off works better than the notch for the K&K). The Venue is just plain handy and worth having even if you don't use it every gig. Jon

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by shawntp

Hey folks, I have a Collings Om2h that I put a Pure Western Mini on. It sounds great without a preamp but I figure I would try out a preamp. I just bought a Soloamp and am starting to gig so I am not sure the best option.

I am aware of the K&K pickup impedance matching with their preamps so I am figuring those are the best options, though I know people also feel the K&K pickups work fine with other preamps and a little EQ adjustment.

As far as I understand the K&K Pure XLR preamp has enhancements over the standard Pure Preamp (which is 45% cheaper). Those are a phase switch and XLR output.

With the soloamp (which has a phase switch and anti-feedback control) I would basically only gain a balanced output into the amp. Is the Soloamp going to benefit from this at all or should just get the standard Pure preamp (or something else). Thanks!

Hi shawn...
First of all many of us use non-K&K preamps and the impedance matching is not an audible issue. Honestly the alleged impedance issue is a non-issue.

I own a Headway EDB-1 with switchable impedance, and you can plug in a K&K Pure Western mini and while playing change the switch between 1 MegaOhm, 5 MegaOhm and 20 MegaOhm without any audible difference.

We have options…
ParaDI, UltraPDI Plus, UltraSound DI-Max (2 channels), Fishman Platinum, and even an older Boss AD-5 all work great and sound wonderful.

Several guys here in the forum have tried the new Baggs Venue and like it a lot too. For fun I ran it through my Bellari Tube preamp from my former sound studio days, and it sounds fabulous through a tube preamp…

My thought and experience say about any preamp you put it through with adjustability is going to make it sound even better than it does RAW.

I do own a K&K Trinity belt/pocket model, and it is fine too (all my rigs are dual souce with a K&K Pure Western Mini and internal mic). It's actually my backup unit for gigs where I use my other 3rd party preamps.

I don't find K&K preamps any better than anyone else's preamps. In fact, the battery powered ones sound great, and have full 3-way tone adjustability, if you open up the case and use a special tool to adjust them (which requires the removal of a phillips head screw to adjust tone and/or change batteries).

I just removed the screw and taped up the side so I can break-in without a screwdriver.

A strong advantage of both the Baggs ParaDI or the two UltraSound offerings is they can be operated on 9 volt batteries or powered off the Phantom power from a PA mixer.

A Fishman Soloamp has 48V phantom. The same XLR cable that connects them to the PA could also power the units...

For me preamps are about form factor, quiet operation, and easy to adjust controls before brand considerations. We do a lot of local PA work, and find quite an array of preamps people show up with their K&K Pure Western minis, and all of them sound really good with K&Ks.

We carry both an UltraPDI and Baggs ParaDI for anyone who shows up at the party without a preamp.

Hope you find the preamp you really love using. Hope this helps...

[shawntp]

Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna

What's wrong with the very good pre-amp already in your SoloAmp??

I have no issues running direct into the SoloAmp, ive just read the claim that a dedicated external preamp can improve sound and wanted to try it out.

Specifically here:
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f.../t-192727.html

Groberts

I havea K&K PWM in my Santa Cruz DPW(Hog). I was using an old Stewart Preamp UDP-1, but it started having issues. My gig amp is a Fishman Soloamp. I played one night through the Soloamp without an external preamp. The Soloamp EQ allows for dialing in the sound nicely, and the feedback notch filter helps too. But I am convinced my K&K PWM sounds better when using a preamp.

I just demo'd a Baggs Venue preamp at my gig friday night ...and it was sooooo good sounding, I bought it the next day.

Side note: I also replaced a Fishman Matrix Ashtray preamp in my 2001 Taylor 514CE with a K&K PWM. The Pure Western Mini sounds light years more natural! Love the K&K PWM and I love the fact that there is no battery inside the guitar to deal with.

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

The Baggs Venue does a great job with the K&K Mini. I play out in a duo and we both use the Venue with the K&K Mini, Fishman Matrix Infinity, and a latest Taylor Expression across all our guitars. I find the foot switchable tuner/mute and the foot switchable boost really useful in my duo. The notch filter works extremely well (a big plus for the K&K when using floor monitors) and I find the equalization at my feet hard to live with out (more so for the Fishman where I roll off the high end a little, but in some situations a little bass roll off works better than the notch for the K&K). The Venue is just plain handy and worth having even if you don't use it every gig. Jon

I love the Venue Jon and I agree with your accessment. The caveat is the SoloAmp has every one of the features you list as benefits to the Venue. The only thing the Venue has that the SoloAmp doesn't is a tuner and a boost switch. That winds up being an expensive tuner and boost switch.

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

The Baggs Venue does a great job with the K&K Mini. I play out in a duo and we both use the Venue with the K&K Mini, Fishman Matrix Infinity, and a latest Taylor Expression across all our guitars. I find the foot switchable tuner/mute and the foot switchable boost really useful in my duo. The notch filter works extremely well (a big plus for the K&K when using floor monitors) and I find the equalization at my feet hard to live with out (more so for the Fishman where I roll off the high end a little, but in some situations a little bass roll off works better than the notch for the K&K). The Venue is just plain handy and worth having even if you don't use it every gig. Jon

Originally Posted by shawntp

I have no issues running direct into the SoloAmp, ive just read the claim that a dedicated external preamp can improve sound and wanted to try it out.

Specifically here:
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f.../t-192727.html

The SoloAmp HAS a dedicated pre-amp and a really good one at that.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna

The SoloAmp HAS a dedicated pre-amp and a really good one at that.

Hi Joseph...
I have a friend with a Solo-Amp and my gigging partner plays with them. He used his K&K without any preamp one gig, and the next gig brought his preamp, and it improved the sound and adjustability of the tone greatly.

[cary]

Honestly the alleged impedance issue is a non-issue.

This hasn't been my experience, and I know plenty of people agree with me (and plenty agree with you as well,) so it seems a bit rash to put it in such black and white terms.

From what I've read, and from my own experience, some folks have been so unhappy with the tone of their K&Ks they were ready to rip them out, only to finally try them with a properly matched pre-amp and discover that the K&Ks sound fantastic.

Obviously, ymmv.

If you just want to stay away from impedance-mismatch issues, and you don't need the other bells and whistles (I was in the same position,) you could always use an active DI. I use the one by Orchid.

[El Conquistador]

My signal chain was: SCGC OM/PW - K&K - SoloAmp.

I am a big fan of the KISS principal when it comes to acoustic amplification. (A big factor in my purchase of the SA to begin with) It worked very well for me. So, if you are happy with your current sound, don't fix what ain't broke.

However, I picked up a weekly sonic nightmare gig. Then, this signal chain was just not equal to that environment. Desperate to hold on to the gig, I decided to experiment with a pre-amp in the chain.

I assumed the K&K Pre would be the best, but, a thread on AGF got me interested in the Red Eye preamp ( http://www.fire-eye.com/welcomepage.htm ) Donh, of this forum, contacted me and offered to send me a Red Eye to try, no charge if I didn't like it. Thinking I had a golden A/B opportunity, I took him up on his offer and then found a K&K dealer with a solid return policy and ordered the K&K XLR as well.

They both arrived on the same day, the day I just happened to have the nightmare gig. This gave me the perfect opportunity to A/B them in a real life situation. I started with the K&K which I really wanted to be the winner since it was cheaper and had more "features" than the Red Eye. I plugged it into my signal chain, and, it helped. Not a lot, but, it did definitley help. So I then swapped in the Red Eye. Wow! Problem solved! The Red Eye made a very large difference and is now a permanent part of my signal chain.

And, has been already mentioned, the extra features the XLR had were merely duplicates of what I already had on my SA. Plus, the Red Eye has a volume boost stomp switch, which, since I never played any solo lead lines in a group, I thought I would never need. However, I have since started playing in an informal jam group and use it all the time.

YMMV.

Steve

P.S. Another nice thing about the Red Eye is that, since it is XLR out and the SA has phantom power, I can simply leave my XLR cable plugged into the unit without worrying about draining the battery, which I never use. This leaves your entire signal chain battery free, which is a very good thing in my experience. (Also, I had a devil of a time getting the K&K unit open and closed when installing the battery which it did NOT come with. It really was a pain and I am very glad to not have to do it again)

[shawntp]

Interesting - What did the red eye solve for you in that space, was it along the lines of crispness, definition, and general presence of the instrument in the space?

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Joseph...
I have a friend with a Solo-Amp and my gigging partner plays with them. He used his K&K without any preamp one gig, and the next gig brought his preamp, and it improved the sound and adjustability of the tone greatly.

So he runs a pre-amp into a pre-amp?

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna

So he runs a pre-amp into a pre-amp?

Hi Joseph...
If you own a current Taylor with the ES system and you plug it into a mixer, or amp, or SoloAmp you are plugging a 'preamp' into a 'preamp'.

My K&K dual source rigs are passive, plugged into an external (as opposed to internal like the Taylor, Martin, Takamine onboard systems), and then into the Amp, PA, or SoloAmp.

It is better for it. You would not want, or expect, a person to disable the preamp in their onboard system to plug into a SoloAmp (or PA or Amp).

The K&K happens to have a hot enough signal that it can be used without a preamp before the amp - and it sounds pretty good. However if you add a preamp before the amp, PA or SoloAmp, it will sound better.

In the case of dual source rigs like mine - there is no possibility of operating without a blender or preamp.

[Aaron Smith]

In my opinion, there are only three situations where pre-amps are "needed":
- to present the pickup with an adequate impedance. Most mixers and DI's will have an adequate input impedance for the job. My experience has been a little different from Larry's; I noticed a significant difference in frequency response when the first item in my chain was a 1M impedance. I use the standard K&K Pure Pre, which I like a lot.
- to have more flexible EQ, mainly for fighting feedback. To me this is the most important function for the pre-amp if you're gigging; if you're playing at home or at lower volumes, it doesn't matter much. I like the K&K Pure Pre because the "mid" control seems to be dialed in exactly at the resonant frequency of the pickup, although the fancier pre's have more flexible EQ.
- to bring the signal to line level to suppress noise in longer cable runs, if you're far away from the mixer. A balanced pre is the best choice here; however, it is not a problem that I've had to deal with in my own setups. I've never had a problem even with 20' cable runs.

So my rule of thumb is- playing at home, playing at open mics, or in relatively controlled rooms, I plug the pickup right into the board or speaker. No sense adding more knobs to twiddle if they're not needed. Mixing boards with parametric EQ give me all the control I need, as long as the sound guy knows what he's doing. Loud shows, tough rooms, full band setups where I have time for an adequate sound check- I add the K&K pre.

[El Conquistador]

Originally Posted by shawntp

Interesting - What did the red eye solve for you in that space, was it along the lines of crispness, definition, and general presence of the instrument in the space?

Yes, yes, and yes.

The tone coming from my SA was much more crisp, had much more definition and presence. I was actually able to turn my volume down and still be heard on the other side of the room clearly. This is a huge deal when you are "background" music and the patrons sitting right next to you want to be able to talk to each other. Here is a picture of what I am up against in this gig:



You can see that I am surrounded by patrons all talking loudly. The rest of the room is equally full. The Red Eye allowed me to play so that the patrons on the far side could hear me clearly and applaud while the patrons sitting two feet away could still talk to each other.

The beneficial effect of the Red Eye has translated to all my gigs. My rig simply sounds better with the Red Eye in the signal chain and it sounded pretty darn good before (after I figured out how to EQ the K&K which was done on the SA).

Steve