Story from changing from TABS to EAR PLAYING only.

[Scotch]

Reading this is like petrol to a fire. It's making me more and more motivated to achieve what you guys already have. Going to keep an eye on this thread.

[JanVigne]

"Any all or nothing approach is crap."


Couldn't agree more!

Every morning my dog Tater wants me up at 5 AM. She takes an all or nothing approach and it's really getting old.

[JanVigne]

Sorry to bring this thread back down to terra firma ...


"Here's the Tommy Emmanuel interview with the quote ... "



Ok, that's interesting. TE doesn't read notation or TAB. So he has to work it out by ear. He also "has people" ... Therefore, the quote could more accurately be, "If you can't work it out by ear, please, hire good people."

'snatch!


Noticing also, in the photo image which accompanies the interview, it appears TE is using a Planet Waves O-Port in his guitar.

[Scotch]

There was already a big discussion wether TE was being serious or jokingly about it. I believe it was a Joke and to be fair in those days how often did you get tabs or music notation.

[TomiPaldanius]

Originally Posted by Scotch

There was already a big discussion wether TE was being serious or jokingly about it. I believe it was a Joke and to be fair in those days how often did you get tabs or music notation.

Actually I had a serious conversation with TE about TAB players and we came to the conclusion that they are so big pollution already that they should be killed in gas chambers.

Edit: That was meant to be black humour. Tabs are ok if you are happy. Don't take it too seriously.

[rick-slo]

A key part about Tommy's comment is that has never used written down music. So having no personal experience with it he really could not say how helpful it could be - whether it could be useful to most people, or even if he early on might have progressed even faster with a glance or two.

[shawlie]

Tomi - wow, have to say I think it is amazing, that video you did! Obvioulsy, who wouldn't want to be able to do what you did there? Hearing it and working out something like that (and playing it so smoothly, of course). I really appreciate you showing it like that - for taking the time and giving help.

I do understand what you mean, I think. Your playing certainly has the flow and feeling of the song, even if the melody is more suggested in a few small places - but of course the song is instantly recognizable, and sounds just great.

I can't say I'll give up tab forever now (and besides, with or without tab my playing will just be what it is). But will make an effort to work out more. I'd like to use your version as help, try out work out the rest of the song in F and instead of tabbing it, I'll record it (and it will be rough...) and try to post it in the next weekend in "Play" or "Show and Tell" - perhaps more as an exercise than an actual performance, of course. and then I'll try to keep at it - a song at a time.

Rick and Jon - thanks a lot for the corrections and help/advice. I now see about the triplets, but still can't work it out in the program - but I assume it must be possible and just have to look more.

And Jon - the grace note up to the Eb, I will use that. Sounds nice (and is easier to play, too). The Bdim7 - also thanks for the correct name (a song I play has an E7 shape stepping down to E7 and is called a Cdim, so I should have thought more about it maybe). And the bends - I think I can get them in the program, just not now quite sure where to play them. But I'll try it by the Ab in the C chord, might be a good place to start.

Again - thanks for the time and help, and shall post more of the song on another section.

[TomiPaldanius]

Well I just have my experience I don't believe that written material as a starting material in any situation is a good choice. Babies don't learn to read first.

I would never go back to written notation when we have access to all songs as a real music. It just does not make any sense to me. Especially when I've realized that this skill can be learned and it is not a natural born talent. You can teach it to others and believe me they can come almost too scary good. I did not see this coming in 15 years of teaching from written notation. Did it 1 year now and there is guys who are already going to perform and have the skill. I can invite couple of them to live session if you want and they can tell their story and play for you?

I hope there is a change coming which goes for core skill development. There is so many people who know a lot of stuff but don't know what to do with them. Their musical skills are almost baby level compared to their mechanical abilities.

If we teachers teach people to play with better ears, music will be better also, Right?

If you play from TABS lets say 80% and by ear 20% the percentage is not natural and you wont be great. How can you if your main goal is to do something which result is to be heard by ears?

Ear development is the no.1 skill for every musician to go for. And what it is today because of TABS?

I am not against TABS totally but if the goal is to get good...Come on...

And like I said: I don't know even 1 great guitar player who uses TABS as learning material or main learning material. Name me one who learns his stuff from tabs?

I apologize if I got too excited but I don't see any reason for defending TABS if you want to be great musician. Life is too short like TE said to use them.

Maybe in 5, 10, 15 or 25 years from now someone reads this post and agrees with me.

Originally Posted by rick-slo

A key part about Tommy's comment is that has never used written down music. So having no personal experience with it he really could not say how helpful it could be - whether it could be useful to most people, or even if he early on might have progressed even faster with a glance or two.

[mr. beaumont]

The music is language metaphor is severely flawed...it's time to stop using it as a rationalization for ignorance.

[dorable]

I don't think that was the intent here. Sure some of the statements against tabs (and notation) are rather severe, but I'd think that's mostly for effect.

I agree with whoever it was earlier who said (essentially) any all or nothing approach is silly. I like that I can read music. Do I wish that I was better at figuring things out by ear? Certainly (it'd be a lot cheaper than going out and buying new songbooks, that's for sure!). I can puzzle out melodies (if given enough time), but for whatever reason chords stump me (partly due to panic of "but there's so many notes at once! and so many variations! eeek!").

Tomi, I for one would be interested in hearing from your students. (I wish I could afford your course... maybe in a few years).

[TomiPaldanius]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

The music is language metaphor is severely flawed...it's time to stop using it as a rationalization for ignorance.

Music is a language mostly for ears. I am just trying to little bit wake up people who use more tabs than ears that it is obvious that ears are more important to develop if you want to be good.

Actually I feel little dull even saying that because it should be obvious for every one but I guess it is not.

[Paikon]

Even if you can figure everything out by ear you should write it down and study it.

Also notation ,no TAB, is the map of the song where you can see phrases,dynamics and everything else the composer want you to know.

[stanron]

Paikon seems to be a bit of a lone voice here, supporting the value of notation. I agree with him. Notation is both valuable and extremely useful. It's an area that guitarists often used to ignore. However I also agree, to an extent, with TomiPaldanius. Playing by ear is absolutely essential if you want to play music that sounds good.

Like so many of my generation, teenager in the sixties, I had no internet, Utube, local teachers or other support in learning guitar. The only thing available was a book called 'Play in a Day' by Bert Weedon and by the time I got my hands on that I already knew my basic open chords and bar shapes.

I had to learn by ear and thought nothing of it. Although I never had a formal lesson I had lots of informal ones. I'd see someone play something I liked and I'd memorise it, go home and try to replicate it. I was developing my ear and also my memory. Not enough is spoken on this forum about memory. Without memory you will be forever glued to pieces of paper.

For me there is a big three; Ear, paper and memory and I include notation and tab in paper. They are all important. Ear works in the now, in present time, paper creates a fasimilie of a past moment and memory connects the present and the past. You can play perfectly good music using ear and memory without paper, and people of my generation mostly had to do that. However without paper you cut yourself off from hundreds of years of music 'recordings'.

My route in guitar playing was the opposite to TomiPaldanius's. Started by ear and taught myself notation much later. However I don't think notation is more important than ear or memory but it is a very valuable tool.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by TomiPaldanius

Music is a language mostly for ears. I am just trying to little bit wake up people who use more tabs than ears that it is obvious that ears are more important to develop if you want to be good.

Actually I feel little dull even saying that because it should be obvious for every one but I guess it is not.

Well, I think you're right...to a point...I value ears over tab (I actually don't value tab much as it is guitar centric, and the music I play is not) but I see it's use, particularly in clarity of positions.

But I do think standard notation is very, very valuable...allows you to play music you can't hear the original version of, for one. On any instrument.

But I don't like the music as language metaphor. There's too many differences in the way one learns music and becomes proficient.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

The music is language metaphor is severely flawed...it's time to stop using it as a rationalization for ignorance.

I agree it's not an exact analogy, but in what ways do you think it's flawed? (I find it very useful myself, within limits.)