why acoustic guitar players cant read scores?

[stanron]

It's all about skills isn't it?

Strumming chords is a skill, fingerpicking is a skill, so is improvising, arranging, playing by ear, reading tab and reading dots.

As a guitarist you can have as many skills as you want to work for. What's the problem?

[tbeltrans]

After reading through most of this thread and seeing a number of interesting perspectives on the issue, I have to say that nobody has yet gotten to the REAL reason acoustic players can't read scores...

We are all "old farts" and the dots are simply too small.

Tony

[Toby Walker]

Very early on in my career I found it necessary to read music on the guitar for the following reasons:

• I was a teacher in a music store and that was required.

• I started learning classical guitar.

• I was preparing to work as a session/pit player.

However, given that I no longer teach in music stores, play classical guitar or work as a pit player there's very little need for sight reading.

The other discouraging thing was there was and still is a huge lack of material for teaching guitarists to sight read. I'm not talking about classical guitar... I'm specifically talking about materials to prepare somebody for being a session/pit player who needs to read something on the spot perfectly the first time through.

At the time the only materials out there were some William Leavitt studies and things that the legendary Tommy Tedesco was putting out.

That was an eye opening experience.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

After reading through most of this thread and seeing a number of interesting perspectives on the issue, I have to say that nobody has yet gotten to the REAL reason acoustic players can't read scores...

We are all "old farts" and the dots are simply too small.

Tony

I was just joking in the above post, but truth be told, I can read. The reason is that I taught myself simply because that is how I was taught to approach learning an instrument when I learned violin in grade school and trumpet in high school. In other words, I didn't know any better ( or worse) at the time that I began to teach myself guitar. It is a good thing I did learn these skills on guitar though, because that is how I got the job in the road band I mentioned in another thread - I could read and that seemed important to the band leader, who was a formally schooled sax player, who also taught music in grade school. I think the full time band was his way of getting out of that job. Anyway, he passed around charts and we were expected to learn the tune from that and play it.

Now, reading is useful to me because I have some Howard Heitmeyer stuff that is written in standard notation and NOT TAB, as well as other materials that are similarly notated. For me, that skill is useful. I can't really argue either way whether somebody else should learn to read. My skills are rusty, but still there good enough for me as a hobbyist. There is a "use or lose it" aspect this, just as there is to playing guitar.

Knowing something about music theory is useful too, but in that case, I think anybody would benefit from having at least some of that. When working with musicians other than guitar players, being able to discuss music in the terms a person knowledgeable in music theory uses, is simply what they do. It does seem to me that, in general, those who play piano, brass instruments, orchestral string instruments, etc. learn through a more traditional (classical) path and therefore learn to read and write music using standard notation and also enough theory to communicate with other musicians in that vernacular.

Rather than insisting that other guitar players should do that, I would prefer to say that there are musical situations in which these skills are necessary because that is what is expected. But whether a person in this thread finds him or herself in that situation is really a matter of that person's choosing. Therefore, it is really a matter of personal choice as to whether these skills are important or not.

Edit: another place I am finding the ability to read is when there are misprints in a book that contains both TAB and notation. Being able to cross-check when something just seems wrong or would be impossible to play is a worthwhile ability to have. I have been playing some of the Barry Galbraith material from Mel Bay lately and I did find one error in the TAB somewhere, that a quick check against the notation cleared up right away. In those books, having the TAB and the fingerings in the notation are all valuable because some of the passages are much easier to play when done as suggested. I see value in all forms of notation - TAB, standard notation, and additional fingering notations.

Tony

[Paikon]

Originally Posted by Toby Walker

The other discouraging thing was there was and still is a huge lack of material for teaching guitarists to sight read. I'm not talking about classical guitar... I'm specifically talking about materials to prepare somebody for being a session/pit player who needs to read something on the spot perfectly the first time through.

read something on the spot perfectly the first time? on guitar?
who does that? who needs that?

[71jasper]

Originally Posted by Paikon

read something on the spot perfectly the first time? on guitar?
who does that? who needs that?

Well, the pit and session players mentioned by Toby. C'mon, pal, you want readers? We got readers! It's just not everyone. Nor does it need to be.

[Paikon]

Originally Posted by 71jasper

Well, the pit and session players mentioned by Toby. C'mon, pal, you want readers? We got readers! It's just not everyone. Nor does it need to be.

no , no i want to motivate beginners to learn standard notation
sight reading is for Steve Vai kind of players

[71jasper]

Originally Posted by Paikon

no , no i want to motivate beginners to learn standard notation
sight reading are for Steve Vai kind of players

So, you finally get to it, Paik, after 150 plus posts. You want beginners to do things your way. I would like to see them use and develop the tools they need to get to the goals they set for themselves, not the goals set for them by you or me or anyone one else.. If that includes reading, so be it. If not , so be it.

[Paikon]

Originally Posted by 71jasper

So, you finally get to it, Paik, after 150 plus posts. You want beginners to do things your way. I would like to see them use and develop the tools they need to get to the goals they set for themselves, not the goals set for them by you or me or anyone one else.. If that includes reading, so be it. If not , so be it.

you dont read ,do you?

[71jasper]

Originally Posted by Paikon

you dont read ,do you?

Apparently you don't. Read my first post on this thread.

[Paikon]

Originally Posted by 71jasper

Apparently you don't. Read my first post on this thread.

my goal is to put acoustic guitar to a place different that it is now
its not about reading
why classical guitar is the main instrument of 400 years of written music( lute, piano lutenwork etc )?
maybe its outopia

[Ed422]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

I was just joking in the above post, but truth be told, I can read. The reason is that I taught myself simply because that is how I was taught to approach learning an instrument when I learned violin in grade school and trumpet in high school. In other words, I didn't know any better ( or worse) at the time that I began to teach myself guitar. It is a good thing I did learn these skills on guitar though, because that is how I got the job in the road band I mentioned in another thread - I could read and that seemed important to the band leader, who was a formally schooled sax player, who also taught music in grade school. I think the full time band was his way of getting out of that job. Anyway, he passed around charts and we were expected to learn the tune from that and play it.

Now, reading is useful to me because I have some Howard Heitmeyer stuff that is written in standard notation and NOT TAB, as well as other materials that are similarly notated. For me, that skill is useful. I can't really argue either way whether somebody else should learn to read. My skills are rusty, but still there good enough for me as a hobbyist. There is a "use or lose it" aspect this, just as there is to playing guitar.

Knowing something about music theory is useful too, but in that case, I think anybody would benefit from having at least some of that. When working with musicians other than guitar players, being able to discuss music in the terms a person knowledgeable in music theory uses, is simply what they do. It does seem to me that, in general, those who play piano, brass instruments, orchestral string instruments, etc. learn through a more traditional (classical) path and therefore learn to read and write music using standard notation and also enough theory to communicate with other musicians in that vernacular.

Rather than insisting that other guitar players should do that, I would prefer to say that there are musical situations in which these skills are necessary because that is what is expected. But whether a person in this thread finds him or herself in that situation is really a matter of that person's choosing. Therefore, it is really a matter of personal choice as to whether these skills are important or not.

Edit: another place I am finding the ability to read is when there are misprints in a book that contains both TAB and notation. Being able to cross-check when something just seems wrong or would be impossible to play is a worthwhile ability to have. I have been playing some of the Barry Galbraith material from Mel Bay lately and I did find one error in the TAB somewhere, that a quick check against the notation cleared up right away. In those books, having the TAB and the fingerings in the notation are all valuable because some of the passages are much easier to play when done as suggested. I see value in all forms of notation - TAB, standard notation, and additional fingering notations.

Tony

I read for years when playing violin and trumpet. I read while playing keyboards. For a short time I read enough to learn some guitar tunes. That was early in the 40 (almost 41) years I have played guitar. I made a decision that I didn't want to use standard notation as part of my guitar experience. More power to those who want to. I have no use for it.

I also have no use for people who feel like they should tell me how to play.

Ed

[Ed422]

Originally Posted by 71jasper

Apparently you don't. Read my first post on this thread.

It is a lost cause trying to communicate with this fellow. Lots of luck trying.

Ed

[rlouie]

this thread has taken up an inordinate amount of moderators time editing and deleting posts so "This thread is closed due to the repeated violation of Rule #1 by several members."