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  #16  
Old 02-08-2010, 01:09 PM
DrDavid DrDavid is offline
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Originally Posted by FingerPlucked View Post
If I was going to base my buying decision on nothing other than what people here tell me I should like, I don't know what I'd buy - there are too many conflicting opinions.
Boy, ain't that the truth!

I suppose it's very good news for all of us that there are so many competing products, each with its own fans and adherents.

But for someone attempting to narrow in on a purchasing decision (without the benefit of being able to listen to the gear first in person), it can definitely get the old bald head to spinning!

I find myself leaning back and forth and back again between (mostly) the L1 Compact and the BagAmp, with the latter currently in the lead.

Although it muddied up my preferences somewhat, I sure enjoyed Kramster's video. Would love to hear more comparisons. And of course more opinions, as well, particularly as folks get more experience and exposure to the various approaches.

Jim, I take it that you yourself have the BagAmp?
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  #17  
Old 02-08-2010, 01:14 PM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
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Originally Posted by FingerPlucked View Post
Herb, you bring up some good points. Just one thing -- the Bose Compact is not a line array. The compact only has 6 speakers in the "stick", and no two of them are pointed in the same direction:

That's not to say that the Compact isn't a nice system, because it is. But if you want a Bose line array, you have to go with the L1 version I or II.
The L1 Model II has speakers mounted on alternating planes so if all the drivers have to be pointing in the same direction in order to be considered a true line array, then the Model II could not be considered one either. The Compact is a short array that exhibits a lower volume drop off with distance than a conventional speaker arrangement (though, obviously, not as gradual as the Model I or Model II). Because of that, I think it qualifies as a line array.
  #18  
Old 02-08-2010, 01:26 PM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
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Originally Posted by FingerPlucked View Post
Bob, I'm not discounting or ruling out the SA or the Compact.

The title of the thread is "Small Amp vs. Line Array". There are only two contenders for line arrays, that's BagAmp and Bose full sticks. (You could call that three since Bose offers version I and II.)

If the OP likes the sound of the SoloAmp or Ultrasound better than the line array offerings, then he might want to buy what he likes. There's nothing wrong with that. But just because the BA has been compared (a lot) to the SA and Compact does not mean that the SA and Compact are line arrays.

If I was going to base my buying decision on nothing other than what people here tell me I should like, I don't know what I'd buy - there are too many conflicting opinions. If I was going to base my buying decision on nothing other than Kramster's comparison videos, it'd be easy -- I'd buy the Bose Compact. In the videos, I thought the Compact smoked the other two systems.

But owning one of the systems and having played through the two others*, I'd suggest trying these systems first hand, hopefully side-by-side, because all three of them sound different (better) than what you saw in the videos.

The OP asked about line arrays. Line arrays project sound better. That's the difference. It does not mean that it'll sound better, only that the sound, good, bad, or whatever, will do a better job of reaching the whole audience.

* Disclaimer: I played through the Bose L1 v.I, not the compact.
You either didn't REALLY read what I wrote or CHOSE to understand only what you wanted to. I was just going to go on and explain myself AGAIN but I just chose NOT to.
  #19  
Old 02-08-2010, 01:27 PM
jjrubin jjrubin is offline
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OP said solo but didn't mention vocals. Add up a vocal channel and dual-source on the guitar (custom config involving two separate outputs -- e.g. an external condenser mic and SBT), that's 3 channels already. Too much for my Schertler David. Or at least if forces me into other gear such as an external mixer for the dual-source, maybe a vocal processor to get some helpful effects.

With my L1 Model II and T1, I've got enough channels for all that plus a guest player. If I'd had it first, I would've saved a lot of money on the David, which I seem not to be using at all now. Still, for a solo gig in a really small venue, I might take the David just for convenience. Or for a really big venue with good house PA, I'll use the David as my guitar monitor and PADI. It sounds great for the guitar, not as great (and a bit underpowered) for the vocals.
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  #20  
Old 02-08-2010, 01:33 PM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
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Originally Posted by jjrubin View Post
OP said solo but didn't mention vocals. Add up a vocal channel and dual-source on the guitar (custom config involving two separate outputs -- e.g. an external condenser mic and SBT), that's 3 channels already. Too much for my Schertler David. Or at least if forces me into other gear such as an external mixer for the dual-source, maybe a vocal processor to get some helpful effects.

With my L1 Model II and T1, I've got enough channels for all that plus a guest player. If I'd had it first, I would've saved a lot of money on the David, which I seem not to be using at all now. Still, for a solo gig in a really small venue, I might take the David just for convenience. Or for a really big venue with good house PA, I'll use the David as my guitar monitor and PADI. It sounds great for the guitar, not as great (and a bit underpowered) for the vocals.
He said solo? I see that he mentions his vocals in the post with his band pictured.
  #21  
Old 02-08-2010, 01:34 PM
FingerPlucked FingerPlucked is offline
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Jim, I take it that you yourself have the BagAmp?
David, yes, I have the BagAmp. I kind of came into it by accident, and was surprised at how good it is. A month or two ago I got together with a couple other guys. One of them brought his SoloAmp, the other brought his Shertler. I thought the BA was a clear winner. The other two guys thought the SoloAmp sounded better.

Theoretically, all three of us were right & no one was wrong. (Ok, maybe the other two guys were wrong.)

The thing I like about the BagAmp's sound is its clear and smooth midrange. Other systems do a better job with a big, full, low-end bass, but some of them have a muddy, almost distorted midrange.

Up until I got my BagAmp, I had been happy using a Genz Benz 150LT with an extension cabinet. It had a very satisfying bass. But it also had a muddy midrange, something I never noticed until I compared it to the BA. At that point, the Genz Benz didn't sound so good anymore, so I put it up for sale.

Up until this weekend, I had been thinking about getting a sub for my BA. (BA's sub is supposed to be available sometime this month.) Actually, I had been thinking about it, then changed my mind when Jack posted here earlier that a sub is not going to do much for a guitarist/singer. But the more I thought about it, I figured a sub HAD to help with the low end.

I went out this weekend and bought a Yamaha mixer. (I couldn't wait for BA to come out with theirs, scheduled for March release.) Just having a little eq control over the BA really helps it's sound, especially the bass. And a good reverb is another improvement. With the new mixer, I'm boosting the bass by about 3 or 4db and the treble about 2 or 3db.

I'm happy with the sound. I don't think I'll be adding a sub afterall.
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  #22  
Old 02-08-2010, 01:40 PM
FingerPlucked FingerPlucked is offline
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Originally Posted by Herb Hunter View Post
The L1 Model II has speakers mounted on alternating planes so if all the drivers have to be pointing in the same direction in order to be considered a true line array, then the Model II could not be considered one either. The Compact is a short array that exhibits a lower volume drop off with distance than a conventional speaker arrangement (though, obviously, not as gradual as the Model I or Model II). Because of that, I think it qualifies as a line array.
Herb, I've seen enough of your posts to know that you're a pretty knowledeable guy.

The reasonable thing to do is to agree with you. Just playing the odds, that'd be my best chance of being right, wouldn't it?

In spite of that, I believe you're wrong. I know that the Compact is not a line array, first because it has too few speakers, and secondly because the speakers that are there are pointed in different directions -- not just horizontally, but on different vertical angles as well.

I wondered the same thing about version II, but after hanging out on the Bose forum for a while, there seems to be a wide consensus that vII is just as much a line array as vI.

Although if you still think I'm wrong, I'll just agree with you and play it safe.
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  #23  
Old 02-08-2010, 01:46 PM
FingerPlucked FingerPlucked is offline
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Originally Posted by BoB/335 View Post
You either didn't REALLY read what I wrote or CHOSE to understand only what you wanted to. I was just going to go on and explain myself AGAIN but I just chose NOT to.
Sorry, Bob. I just read your post again. That makes three times now. I don't know what I'm missing or why you seem upset.

Whatever point I'm missing, you're going to have to try again or let it go, because I'm not seeing it.
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  #24  
Old 02-08-2010, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by FingerPlucked View Post
David, yes, I have the BagAmp. I kind of came into it by accident, and was surprised at how good it is. A month or two ago I got together with a couple other guys. One of them brought his SoloAmp, the other brought his Shertler. I thought the BA was a clear winner. The other two guys thought the SoloAmp sounded better.

Theoretically, all three of us were right & no one was wrong. (Ok, maybe the other two guys were wrong.)

The thing I like about the BagAmp's sound is its clear and smooth midrange. Other systems do a better job with a big, full, low-end bass, but some of them have a muddy, almost distorted midrange.

Up until I got my BagAmp, I had been happy using a Genz Benz 150LT with an extension cabinet. It had a very satisfying bass. But it also had a muddy midrange, something I never noticed until I compared it to the BA. At that point, the Genz Benz didn't sound so good anymore, so I put it up for sale.

Up until this weekend, I had been thinking about getting a sub for my BA. (BA's sub is supposed to be available sometime this month.) Actually, I had been thinking about it, then changed my mind when Jack posted here earlier that a sub is not going to do much for a guitarist/singer. But the more I thought about it, I figured a sub HAD to help with the low end.

I went out this weekend and bought a Yamaha mixer. (I couldn't wait for BA to come out with theirs, scheduled for March release.) Just having a little eq control over the BA really helps it's sound, especially the bass. And a good reverb is another improvement. With the new mixer, I'm boosting the bass by about 3 or 4db and the treble about 2 or 3db.

I'm happy with the sound. I don't think I'll be adding a sub afterall.
I tell ya, the minute I think "ok, the SoloAmp wins!" then someone has to go and post again and it's "ok, the Bagamp wins!"

I really like Fishman as a company -- good designs and they've treated me well in the past with repairs etc. -- but I'm also using a Yammy mixer (MG12CX) and really like it, so I suppose the extra features on the SA might be redundant...tho it always sounds tempting to cut down on the amount of gear i haul around.... The compressors on the mixer, tho, and the convenience of keeping my controls in arm's reach, may outweigh the simplicity of a single "amp"...plus I'm using three ins on the mixer already and will probably often want/need an extra mic for guest/friends singing or playing mando or whatever....

The two places we play most often are shaped entirely wrong -- complex rooms where the bulk of the listeners are off to the side -- so better "dispersion" would probably both help *and* be lost, given how much I assume sound waves bounce around these two places.

Yet and still, these two places are pretty rowdy and incredibly loud (for me, as in it's hard to hear myself), so I'm not doing my own hearing any good standing in front of my blasting speaker.

Hmm...do you think my wife would buy that excuse?? Maybe I'll make a point of saying "what? huh? speak up??" after each show....
  #25  
Old 02-08-2010, 01:48 PM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
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Originally Posted by FingerPlucked View Post
Herb, I've seen enough of your posts to know that you're a pretty knowledeable guy.

The reasonable thing to do is to agree with you. Just playing the odds, that'd be my best chance of being right, wouldn't it?

In spite of that, I believe you're wrong. I know that the Compact is not a line array, first because it has too few speakers, and secondly because the speakers that are there are pointed in different directions -- not just horizontally, but on different vertical angles as well.

I wondered the same thing about version II, but after hanging out on the Bose forum for a while, there seems to be a wide consensus that vII is just as much a line array as vI.

Although if you still think I'm wrong, I'll just agree with you and play it safe.
To me, what defines a line array, apart from the vertical arrangement of the speakers, is the rate at which volume falls off with distance. If the Compact's volume drop off rate is not better than that of the SoloAmp, then I'll have to concede that you are right.
  #26  
Old 02-08-2010, 01:50 PM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
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Originally Posted by tdrake View Post
I tell ya, the minute I think "ok, the SoloAmp wins!" then someone has to go and post again and it's "ok, the Bagamp wins!"

I really like Fishman as a company -- good designs and they've treated me well in the past with repairs etc. -- but I'm also using a Yammy mixer (MG12CX) and really like it, so I suppose the extra features on the SA might be redundant...tho it always sounds tempting to cut down on the amount of gear i haul around.... The compressors on the mixer, tho, and the convenience of keeping my controls in arm's reach, may outweigh the simplicity of a single "amp"...plus I'm using three ins on the mixer already and will probably often want/need an extra mic for guest/friends singing or playing mando or whatever....
Haven't you been reading. It's "ok" the Compact wins!
  #27  
Old 02-08-2010, 01:50 PM
FingerPlucked FingerPlucked is offline
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It sounds great for the guitar, not as great (and a bit underpowered) for the vocals.
That was pretty much the same impression I got when I played through my friend's Schertler David, although he has a higher vocal range than I do and he sounds just fine through it.
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  #28  
Old 02-08-2010, 01:52 PM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
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To me, what defines a line array, apart from the vertical arrangement of the speakers, is the rate at which volume falls off with distance. If the Compact's volume drop off rate is not better than that of the SoloAmp, then I'll have to concede that you are right.
It's been stated several times that the Compact is better at being a monitor and the volume not having to be as loud on stage to get into the audience.
  #29  
Old 02-08-2010, 02:13 PM
FingerPlucked FingerPlucked is offline
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To me, what defines a line array, apart from the vertical arrangement of the speakers, is the rate at which volume falls off with distance. If the Compact's volume drop off rate is not better than that of the SoloAmp, then I'll have to concede that you are right.
The vertical arrangement is what makes it a line array (or not). Once you have a line array, the output of the speakers couple with each other vertically, and project from the line array in a cylindrical pattern, straight out with very little vertical spread.

To achieve that, you have to hit a minimum height to width ratio of 8 to 1 with speakers mounted very near each other. Using 3" diameter speakers mounted next to each other, you'd need 8 speakers in a line (3" wide, 24" high).

I think I got those figures from Jack Campbell's previous posts. He also stated something along the lines of the 8:1 ratio being minimum, while a 24:1 ratio is ideal. Reading between the lines, I think that also means that the Bose full sticks (v.I & II) do a better job of projecting or acting like a line array than the BagAmp with it's 8:1 ratio.
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  #30  
Old 02-08-2010, 02:13 PM
Aaron Smith Aaron Smith is offline
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I know there have been a lot of discussions here that debate what constitutes a line array and what doesn't- I wanted to point out that it's not a black vs. white issue. At times there have been business interests involved that, in my opinion, did not contribute positively to the discussions.
Even though the SoloAmp may not meet the pure technical definition of a line array, it still possesses some advantages over traditional speaker design- namely a wide horizontal dispersion, a controlled vertical dispersion, and the ability to mount it at ear level and direct the sound. Even if you look at it as a fancier MTM configuration, it has great benefits over a standard amp. True line arrays don't come without design disadvantages, either- namely, weak bass reproduction due to the small drivers required.
So I would not be so quick to cast out the SoloAmp, based on what is essentially clever marketing. I think it is a very nice design compromise that sounds great, has more than adequate bass response without the need for a subwoofer, and is very portable. Obviously I'm a happy user of the product; I don't doubt that the others are great too, so you should probably give them all a try and draw your own conclusions.
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