Martin OM-42: Forward shifted bracing?

[jkilgour2000]

I’m trying to figure out if the OM 42 (or even any OM) from Martin is forward shifted. I read somewhere that technically, they are, but since the bracing has always been where it is (never shifted back in the first place) is why when you read the specs on the guitar, it doesn’t say “forward shifted”. Can someone confirm this? Thanks if you can!!

[DenverSteve]

They are not. They are scalloped x-braced.

[jkilgour2000]

Thank you for the confirmation!

[Wade Hampton]

Forward shifted bracing exists only in dreadnoughts and other large body guitars. With guitars of the OM/14 fret Triple O size and smaller, there simply isn't enough room to shift them in either direction. So scalloped braces on an OM are going to already be located in the premium spot.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Wade Hampton]

I just received an email from someone far more knowledgeable about Martin guitars than I am who told me what I wrote in my previous post in this thread is wrong. I don’t have time to post the correction right now, and won’t have time until this evening, but will do so when I return home.

I’m trying to get him to post the information himself, but he’s shy...


Wade Hampton Miller

[Teleplucker]

I have a 35 00 it has rear shifted bracing according to one of the folks on UMGF. Here’s a quote from a conversation on that topic.


Ouestion :The X brace on this guitar is just shy of 2 inches away from the sound hole. Is that rear or forward shifted?

Answer: That is rear braced. Forward would be very close to 1" from the sound hole.”

[blindboyjimi]

You might have read my post from the other day explaining the Martin history. I'll try to stick with the OM to 000-14 fret guitars. OMs were made from 1929-1934 and were traditionally braced all the same. When the model was transitioned to the 14 fret short scale 000 the bracing stayed in place, the scale changed and the saddle spacing went from 2 3/8” to 2 5/16”. This occurred in 1934. In mid 1938 the bracing was rear shifted to better brace the lower bout because of warranty repairs. In mid 1939, the saddle spacing changed to 2 1/8” and the nut changed to 1 11/16”.

The simple test to see what you have is stick a dowel or pencil in the sound hole against the top toward the bridge. In easy numbers, if you get about 1” to the X, you are normal position. If you get close to 2” you are in the rear shifted position. There was no forward shifting.

Today with such a mix, especially with the laminate guitars and all the Authentics, the “rules” are smeared. But when you talk “Martin-speak” the above rules apply. I hope that helps.

Here is my 1937 000-18 (note the tape is too wide to get all the way into the X but this is just to show the X position simply). So if you understand the above, 1937 is in the normal position about 1” from the sound hole opening up the lower bout for a bigger tone and bass.
IMG_0270.jpg

Here is my 1956 D-28. I don't own a later model 000-18/28. Since this is after 1938, the bracing X has moved rearward and is more than 1". This focuses the tone and allows more projection from a less loose lower bout...not a bad thing, just different. (Technically, the Dread bracing moved again in 1955 to a slightly different position which is considered a "modern" position. The relative positions for the Dreads are 1", 1 7/8", and 1 1/2". Thanks Buck from UMGF)
IMG_0271.jpg

Edit: I guess I was typing while the above answer was posted and had quickly mis-read the post above, but the answer is the same. His 1935 is braced in the rear-shifted position. The 00 bracing moved in 1935 so his guitar could potentially be in the original position or rearward shifted. There is only normally braced or rearward shifted. This also gets confused with GE bracing and Authentic bracing which do not refer to the position of the X, but the degree of scalloping.

[Mrbirdog]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

I just received an email from someone far more knowledgeable about Martin guitars than I am who told me what I wrote in my previous post in this thread is wrong. I don’t have time to post the correction right now, and won’t have time until this evening, but will do so when I return home.

I’m trying to get him to post the information himself, but he’s shy...


Wade Hampton Miller

Wade,

My GP is forward shifted....Take care of the Brown bears up there, comin to see them soon.
Regards,
Mrbirdog

[jkilgour2000]

Originally Posted by blindboyjimi

You might have read my post from the other day explaining the Martin history. I'll try to stick with the OM to 000-14 fret guitars. OMs were made from 1929-1934 and were traditionally braced all the same. When the model was transitioned to the 14 fret short scale 000 the bracing stayed in place, the scale changed and the saddle spacing went from 2 3/8” to 2 5/16”. This occurred in 1934. In mid 1938 the bracing was rear shifted to better brace the lower bout because of warranty repairs. In mid 1939, the saddle spacing changed to 2 1/8” and the nut changed to 1 11/16”.

The simple test to see what you have is stick a dowel or pencil in the sound hole against the top toward the bridge. In easy numbers, if you get about 1” to the X, you are normal position. If you get close to 2” you are in the rear shifted position. There was no forward shifting.

Today with such a mix, especially with the laminate guitars and all the Authentics, the “rules” are smeared. But when you talk “Martin-speak” the above rules apply. I hope that helps.

Here is my 1937 000-18 (note the tape is too wide to get all the way into the X but this is just to show the X position simply). So if you understand the above, 1937 is in the normal position about 1” from the sound hole opening up the lower bout for a bigger tone and bass.
Attachment 22797

Here is my 1956 D-28. I don't own a later model 000-18/28. Since this is after 1938, the bracing X has moved rearward and is more than 1". This focuses the tone and allows more projection from a less loose lower bout...not a bad thing, just different. (Technically, the Dread bracing moved again in 1955 to a slightly different position which is considered a "modern" position. The relative positions for the Dreads are 1", 1 7/8", and 1 1/2". Thanks Buck from UMGF)
Attachment 22798

Edit: I guess I was typing while the above answer was posted and had quickly mis-read the post above, but the answer is the same. His 1935 is braced in the rear-shifted position. The 00 bracing moved in 1935 so his guitar could potentially be in the original position or rearward shifted. There is only normally braced or rearward shifted. This also gets confused with GE bracing and Authentic bracing which do not refer to the position of the X, but the degree of scalloping.

Thank you for this great information!

[Wade Hampton]

Here's the email I got from Todd Yates this morning.

Todd wrote this to me before I came back on the thread to say that I had it wrong. The people who posted from post # 6 onward hadn't posted their contributions to the thread yet, so Todd wasn't referring to any of them when he wrote that nobody had provided the OP with the correct information yet.

Here's what Todd wrote:

"Wade,

"Hope things are going well with you and your new Custom Shop Martin. I think it came out very nice, especially the non-conformist headstock. :-)

"I was sitting here eating a bowl of oatmeal and drinking coffee, as one does, and I noticed your comment on bracing positions. So far no one in that thread has given the OP the correct answer. Normally I just let it go, but this one was too far off not to mention it to you. (And if you feel I’m meddling a bit too much, just let me know.)

"Martin OM’s are most definitely forward braced. The spec doesn’t say it for the exact reason the OP mentioned in his question - there is no other location for the bracing on OM’s. They were discontinued before the bracing position changes started happening in the mid-30’s. Therefore the specification doesn’t list it as forward. If you measure it on Martin OM compared to a typical 14 fret 000 you’ll see there’s about 7/8” difference.

"The same is true of 12 fret Martins of all sizes. The bracing is always forward with respect to the bridge. Even though Martin has made the 12 fret guitars with both 19 and 20 fret boards, the bracing is always in the same position relative to the bridge. Even when they brought them back into production in the postwar era they used the original forward position. It’s one of the reasons a postwar 12 fret D sounds so different from a postwar 14 fret D, body size AND bracing position are different. It’s also one of the reasons your Custom Shop guitar seems more powerful than it “should” for a 00 size.

"Another point, I avoid the term “forward shifted” in favor of “forward braced”. Since the forward position is the original position, it was never shifted into that position.

"In modern times Martin has made some forward braced 14 fret 000’s, but most have been rear braced since 1938. Examples include the 000-18GE, 000-18A, and the new 000-28MD. All OM’s are forward braced though. Martin has NEVER in modern times made a forward braced 00 or smaller 14 fret guitar.

"One way to know which bracing a 14 fret guitar has is to look at the sound hole and check the position of the X-brace. Forward bracing is very near 1” for all sizes and rear bracing is very near 1 7/8” for all sizes. Those aren’t exact measurements, but the difference is not subtle. You don’t need precise measurements. If you’re looking at photo of the bracing you can tell by the length of the bridge plate. A rear braced plate is short. Because the bridge location did not change on the top but the bracing moved, the E/e pins are pretty close to the X-brace. They are much further from the X-brace on forward braced guitar. I can send you a couple of photos if that would help.

"Here’s the summary…

12 frets - always forward braced in all sizes, all eras
OM’s - always forward braced
14 fret 00 and smaller - rear braced starting 1935
14 fret 000 and D - rear braced starting 1938
14 fret D - bracing moved forward to the “modern” 1 1/2” position in 1955 (only Dreadnaughts)

"All that applies to Standard Series and up. The modern 17 Series and below use new bracing patterns unrelated to historical structure."

"Best,
"Todd Yates"


Hopefully this will give you all more correct information than I initially provided. I stand corrected, and am glad that Todd took the time to do so.


Wade Hampton Miller

[jkilgour2000]

Thank you! And thank you Todd for clearing it up.

[mcduffnw]

[QUOTE=Wade Hampton;6065769]Here's the email I got from Todd Yates this morning.

Todd wrote this to me before I came back on the thread to say that I had it wrong. The people who posted from post # 6 onward hadn't posted their contributions to the thread yet, so Todd wasn't referring to any of them when he wrote that nobody had provided the OP with the correct information yet.

Here's what Todd wrote:

"Wade,

"Hope things are going well with you and your new Custom Shop Martin. I think it came out very nice, especially the non-conformist headstock. :-)

"I was sitting here eating a bowl of oatmeal and drinking coffee, as one does, and I noticed your comment on bracing positions. So far no one in that thread has given the OP the correct answer. Normally I just let it go, but this one was too far off not to mention it to you. (And if you feel I’m meddling a bit too much, just let me know.)

"Martin OM’s are most definitely forward braced. The spec doesn’t say it for the exact reason the OP mentioned in his question - there is no other location for the bracing on OM’s. They were discontinued before the bracing position changes started happening in the mid-30’s. Therefore the specification doesn’t list it as forward. If you measure it on Martin OM compared to a typical 14 fret 000 you’ll see there’s about 7/8” difference.

"The same is true of 12 fret Martins of all sizes. The bracing is always forward with respect to the bridge. Even though Martin has made the 12 fret guitars with both 19 and 20 fret boards, the bracing is always in the same position relative to the bridge. Even when they brought them back into production in the postwar era they used the original forward position. It’s one of the reasons a postwar 12 fret D sounds so different from a postwar 14 fret D, body size AND bracing position are different. It’s also one of the reasons your Custom Shop guitar seems more powerful than it “should” for a 00 size.

"Another point, I avoid the term “forward shifted” in favor of “forward braced”. Since the forward position is the original position, it was never shifted into that position.

"In modern times Martin has made some forward braced 14 fret 000’s, but most have been rear braced since 1938. Examples include the 000-18GE, 000-18A, and the new 000-28MD. All OM’s are forward braced though. Martin has NEVER in modern times made a forward braced 00 or smaller 14 fret guitar.

"One way to know which bracing a 14 fret guitar has is to look at the sound hole and check the position of the X-brace. Forward bracing is very near 1” for all sizes and rear bracing is very near 1 7/8” for all sizes. Those aren’t exact measurements, but the difference is not subtle. You don’t need precise measurements. If you’re looking at photo of the bracing you can tell by the length of the bridge plate. A rear braced plate is short. Because the bridge location did not change on the top but the bracing moved, the E/e pins are pretty close to the X-brace. They are much further from the X-brace on forward braced guitar. I can send you a couple of photos if that would help.






Hopefully this will give you all more correct information than I initially provided. I stand corrected, and am glad that Todd took the time to do so.


So Wade...

Since when is Todd shy...

He certainly was not/is not on the UMGF, where he has been a well noted and super respected titan of information and expertise about vintage Martin guitars for many many years, and he was, for a time very recently, a very regular poster here on the AGF.

Is he no longer posting here?

duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by blindboyjimi

You might have read my post from the other day explaining the Martin history. I'll try to stick with the OM to 000-14 fret guitars. OMs were made from 1929-1934 and were traditionally braced all the same. When the model was transitioned to the 14 fret short scale 000 the bracing stayed in place, the scale changed and the saddle spacing went from 2 3/8” to 2 5/16”. This occurred in 1934. In mid 1938 the bracing was rear shifted to better brace the lower bout because of warranty repairs. In mid 1939, the saddle spacing changed to 2 1/8” and the nut changed to 1 11/16”.

The simple test to see what you have is stick a dowel or pencil in the sound hole against the top toward the bridge. In easy numbers, if you get about 1” to the X, you are normal position. If you get close to 2” you are in the rear shifted position. There was no forward shifting.

Today with such a mix, especially with the laminate guitars and all the Authentics, the “rules” are smeared. But when you talk “Martin-speak” the above rules apply. I hope that helps.

Here is my 1937 000-18 (note the tape is too wide to get all the way into the X but this is just to show the X position simply). So if you understand the above, 1937 is in the normal position about 1” from the sound hole opening up the lower bout for a bigger tone and bass.
Attachment 22797

Here is my 1956 D-28. I don't own a later model 000-18/28. Since this is after 1938, the bracing X has moved rearward and is more than 1". This focuses the tone and allows more projection from a less loose lower bout...not a bad thing, just different. (Technically, the Dread bracing moved again in 1955 to a slightly different position which is considered a "modern" position. The relative positions for the Dreads are 1", 1 7/8", and 1 1/2". Thanks Buck from UMGF)
Attachment 22798

Edit: I guess I was typing while the above answer was posted and had quickly mis-read the post above, but the answer is the same. His 1935 is braced in the rear-shifted position. The 00 bracing moved in 1935 so his guitar could potentially be in the original position or rearward shifted. There is only normally braced or rearward shifted. This also gets confused with GE bracing and Authentic bracing which do not refer to the position of the X, but the degree of scalloping.

So with the exact same body dimensions, the OM and 000-14 fret modern standard series Martins have the X brace placed 7/8” (almost 1 inch) different. That’s huge!

[Wade Hampton]

Duff, when I wrote that Todd is “shy,” I was joking. I was hoping to lure him back to posting on AGF once more, but he stopped posting here a while back. He still keeps in touch with a few of us offline, but he was upset about some stuff a while back and has chosen to absent himself for the time being. Maybe for longer than the time being, I don’t know

Anyway, Todd is extremely knowledgeable about Martin guitars, more so than I am, and he’s the guy that I called when I wanted to refine the order for the Martin Custom Shop 00-21 that I ordered about a year ago and received last October.

I already knew most of what I wanted - 12 fret body join, slim modern neck profile, Ambertone finish on the top, solid headstock with black sealed gear Gotoh mini tuners - but Todd suggested that I order order it with a Swiss spruce top, which is something that hadn’t occurred to me and probably wouldn’t have.

But when I told him the sound I was looking for, he suggested Swiss spruce. It was an inexpensive upgrade, a fraction of what an Adirondack spruce top would have cost me, and the resulting guitar is a magnificent instrument.

So I give Todd at least partial credit for how well the guitar came out.


Wade Hampton Miller

[gmel555]

Thank you to Wade and Todd. Ive learned something new about my own Custom Shop 000-15sm 12 fret. The spec sheet says:

"TOP BRACES: Adirondack/Non-Scalloped 1/4''/Standard"

Even though the bracing is described as "standard". I guess "forward" bracing is the standard on a Martin 12-fret. I wonder if the extended body length fret-side of the sound hole on 000 12 fretters requires the bracing to be extended "forward"...Anyway thanks for the education.