Violin Varnish Finisher Needed for Archtop Guitar

[funkymonk#9]

I have a series of threads I am going to post regarding some instrument luthier /repair projects that have been building up and I could use some advice or assistance in finding the right path.

This first one is an archtop guitar that is ready for a finish. I had initially done a french polish but after a botched rebinding I decided to refinish.

Step 1 is picking the color and finding the right varnish mixture or someone who can make it.

I could attempt to do myself with modest results depending on how much toning I need to do throughout the process to keep it consistent over the large area of different grain. I have done some padding and brushing and have minimal but good experiences doing thus far. But not on a archtop. I did initially with a super blond shellac.

The alternative is to have it professionally done. Which may be easier said than done as it seems throughout the repair/luthier field many do not want to touch someone's handbuilt instrument.

If any good candidates come to mind or an excellent violin varnish tutorial I would be grateful.

[Quickstep192]

International violin company has violin varnish in a variety of colors as well as some instructions.


https://internationalviolin.com/Shop...rnish-extracts


https://internationalviolin.com/Shop...h-instructions

[Bruce Sexauer]

I know a number of violin makers, including myself, and all I am aware of do their own finish. None I am aware of finish other people’s insruments.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by funkymonk#9

If any good candidates come to mind or an excellent violin varnish tutorial I would be grateful.

Why violin varnish?

There are a number of finishes that you could try or use, with varying levels of skill required. You mention you've already tried shellac/French polish. One option is to practice some more and develop further skill at that, practicing on scrap wood, rather than a guitar. (Not having to fill pores by using closed-pored woods, such as spruce and maple, makes the job much easier.)

Sprayed finishes could be an option. If you don't have spray equipment, spray cans could be adequate for a single instrument.

There are some wipe-on finishes that could work well, including wipe-on poly.

Some have reported success in using brushed-on Target EM6000, a waterborne lacquer.


If you decide to outsource the finishing, you might want to consider other options beyond just violin varnish. You might have more success in finding a finisher is you include other finish options.

[nikpearson]

I always think new violins look like the finish has been applied very heavily and they often look rather orange in hue. This is of course a huge generalisation but I get to see the instruments of many talented makers in the adjacent violin school and this observation is very common.

Why not try French polishing again. You can adjust the colour quite a bit and with practice you could get a nice finish. As a previous poster suggested you could practice on a piece of wood.

[Alan Carruth]

Although some hand makers talk about using violin varnish, the vast majority of arch top guitars have been finished with other things. Of those, the vast majority have used nitrocellulose lacquer. Personally, I hate the stuff, but it is the industry standard.

There does not seem to be any tonal magic in violin varnish, despite the centuries of myth. Nobody knows what Strad et al actually used for sure. From time to time somebody claims the have found 'the secret': one guy recently did that every ten or fifteen years, and it was a different 'secret' every time, so you have to wonder. The best scientific evidence suggests that there are lots of things that can work on a violin, and that what matters most is what the first couple of coats do.

The violin varnishes that I'm familiar with are not particularly well suited for guitars, and particularly arch top guitars. They tend to be too soft, and many of them get softer and stickier with heat or high humidity.

Keep in mind that violins and guitars are very different, both in the way they work and in the way they're used. The fact that arch top guitars superficially look like violins doesn't mean they work like them. What's beneficial on a fiddle may be detrimental on a guitar, and vice versa.

There are people who do guitar finishing, using various types of material that are generally better adapted to the guitar than violin varnish. Many of the 'best' hand makers use these shops to do their finishing. It's not necessarily cheap, but they can do a fine job.

Alternatively, if you want to learn to do it yourself, I'd recommend a good oil-resin varnish, applied with a brush. It's a fair amount of work, but with the right varnish can result in a beautiful and durable finish, far better in many respects than either French polish or nitro IMO.

[Bruce Sexauer]

As it happens, I do use the same finish on my Violins as I do on my Arch-tops, and it is oil varnish. If you email me and ask for it, I will send you my schedule including materials and sources. I currently spray, but brushing works fine, it just takes both more skill and more time. My email is under "contact" at the top of any page on my site, which is linked below. It is not that hard to get adequate results, but it is very challenging to get professional results.

[funkymonk#9]

Originally Posted by nikpearson

I always think new violins look like the finish has been applied very heavily and they often look rather orange in hue. This is of course a huge generalisation but I get to see the instruments of many talented makers in the adjacent violin school and this observation is very common.

Why not try French polishing again. You can adjust the colour quite a bit and with practice you could get a nice finish. As a previous poster suggested you could practice on a piece of wood.

I see what you mean, I was thinking more of the chestnut brown variety with a bit of reddish hue. Sure the thickness is key.

I did this guitar in French polish the 1st time as super blonde. If I did a varnish it would be sealed with shellac and the color I was going for. Then apply clear varnish on top. The advantage is oil resin varnish can be much harder and stable than french polish application.

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

There are people who do guitar finishing, using various types of material that are generally better adapted to the guitar than violin varnish. Many of the 'best' hand makers use these shops to do their finishing. It's not necessarily cheap, but they can do a fine job.

Alternatively, if you want to learn to do it yourself, I'd recommend a good oil-resin varnish, applied with a brush. It's a fair amount of work, but with the right varnish can result in a beautiful and durable finish, far better in many respects than either French polish or nitro IMO.

I love your advice, for both options. I guess I don't have as much reason to choose why I want varnish over other options as much I respect those that do. I spoke with a builder earlier today and he also mentioned a oil resin varnish which dries much faster and harder although isn't as "snooty as the best" violin varnishes.
He mentioned adding the color mixed with the first couple sealer coats of shellac. And then adding clear varnish brush or spray, brushing taking more time and effort.
Do you see the coloring done initially as the oil varnish isn't used in toning or shading? Also can using a darker shellac be part of the process of finding the color wanted.

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

As it happens, I do use the same finish on my Violins as I do on my Arch-tops, and it is oil varnish. If you email me and ask for it, I will send you my schedule including materials and sources. I currently spray, but brushing works fine, it just takes both more skill and more time. My email is under "contact" at the top of any page on my site, which is linked below. It is not that hard to get adequate results, but it is very challenging to get professional results.

Wow, thanks Bruce...I would be immensely grateful to see that. I will aim for professional and hopefully land on adequate or better. This is my 3rd guitar and all have different finishes so I take the bad with the good.

[Alan Carruth]

Like Bruce, I too use the same oil varnish for both violins and guitars. It's just not the sort of 'violin varnish' that's often sold to, and used by, violin makers. I brush it on.

Several years ago a friend of mine was visited by a fellow who was writing a directory of violin makers. Before asking one question he indicated that he didn't need a specific answer; it was ;"What varnish do you use?". My friend told him the brand he bought, and the fellow laughed as he checked off 'commercial varnish'. After the questionnaire was completed he said that he'd laughed at my friend's reply to the varnish question because it was so frank. Often, he said, makers would say that was their 'secret recipe', arrived at after much work. The 'makes own varnish' box would be checked and the next question asked. As the interview went on, the maker would realize that the writer was not interested in how the varnish was made, and would not share the 'secret', so, at the end, as often as not, they'd tell him what it was. It was always the same recipe. The teachers pass on the ingredients list to their students (but not the recipe), and the students all work it out for themselves. Given the same list of ingredients there are not many ways you could put them together and get a satisfactory varnish, so they end up homing in on the same thing, with only minor changes.

[Bruce Sexauer]

I have never made my own varnish. I don’t see any reason to. I laugh at how good the Ace hardware product is. Its one “fault” is being a bit soft, which is fine for the violin, but allows less impact resistance than your average guitar geek expects. It was a great day what I discovered that Murdoch’s Alcalyd (sp) 500 floor varnish, technically a urethane, dries a bit too hard, and that the 2 products can be mixed and their hardness qualities seem to be in direct proportion to their physical quantities. This allows me one more way to control the tone and other qualities in my work. How boring Nitro Cellulose seems by comparison.

[funkymonk#9]

Ok So I got more than I bargained for with responses and am glad for it.

A couple follow ups:
I think it was agreed that the color would be added during the sealer coat phase with Shellac. And further would the darker shellac be used to some degree to attain that over dyes?

2nd, Does anyone know anyone off hand that would do this if it comes to it,
But honestly I am becoming more and more confident to give it a try.

Here is close to what I am shooting for.



And this one is pretty cool also, more retro than traditional


Or this one:

[Alan Carruth]

I made one small batch of oil-resin varnish many years ago. I've still got some of the ingredients, and may make another one day. It was a pain in the neck, and didn't come out nearly as well as I'd have liked, so it's not a priority, for sure. It did give me some insight about varnish, though, which has been a help.

Mayer, in his 'Artist's Handbook' makes the point that it's very difficult to make cooked oil-resin varnishes in small batches ("...smaller than the usual 50-250 gallon batch...", p185) and get good quality control. It's something that's best left to the pros, like making alloy steel.

It's hard to beat the Murdoch's 'Ure-Alkyd 500' varnish as a guitar finish. The main issue I've had with it is getting it to cure over some tropical woods. UV light helps a lot with that, and time, of course.

[Bruce Sexauer]

Many/most oil varnishes have drying issues directly over certain rosewoods and ebonies. Sealing with Zinnser Sealcoat or some shellacs solves the issue every time, for me. If the varnish film is sanded through, the Zinnser product can be overcoated at any point and 2 varnish coats later it there is no issue.

IMO, of course.

[Quickstep192]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

I have never made my own varnish. I don’t see any reason to. I laugh at how good the Ace hardware product is. Its one “fault” is being a bit soft, which is fine for the violin, but allows less impact resistance than your average guitar geek expects. It was a great day what I discovered that Murdoch’s Alcalyd (sp) 500 floor varnish, technically a urethane, dries a bit too hard, and that the 2 products can be mixed and their hardness qualities seem to be in direct proportion to their physical quantities. This allows me one more way to control the tone and other qualities in my work. How boring Nitro Cellulose seems by comparison.

Bruce,

I’ve not been able to find the Ace Hardware Varnish lately. Do you have a secret source?

[Bruce Sexauer]

Originally Posted by Quickstep192

Bruce,

I’ve not been able to find the Ace Hardware Varnish lately. Do you have a secret source?

It’s on the shelf at Petaluma’s Tomasini Rex Ace Hardware, and they order it for me by the 4 quart case. I have ordered it several times since the first time I was told by a would be buyer that it could not be found. Others have also succeeded at getting it. When I get to work later today I will post its product number.