Do we need a better portable aftermarket IR solution?

[Beagle1]

I am not a big fan of IR's, whether applied to things like reverb, or guitar amp speaker modeling, or acoustic guitar amplification. It just doesn't sound or feel quite right to me.

Fortunately, we are finally starting to see the technology move ahead with new devices like the Universal Audio OX for electric guitar amps, which attempts to better model all the nuances and response of a real speaker cabinet. Admittedly, I have no experience with the ToneDexter aside from recently hearing John Jorgenson use it live, but I definitely admire what James May is doing in trying to move the technology forward for acoustic guitar.

I really think regular analog dual-source systems are not far off from being able to satisfy most guitarists. The Maton AP5 Pro system sounds amazing whether you are fingerpicking or strumming hard. If someone could figure out a way to capture what that system is doing and make it available in an after-market solution, they would be on to something.

Taylor is getting closer with their ES2 but IMHO it really needs a second source (either a mic or an SBT) to make it sound more natural. Baggs is really, really close with the Anthem. They just need to figure out how to make the Element UST part of it sound less quacky. Maybe they could give us an Anthem Pro model made up of something like an LB6 + the Lyric. And the K&K Trinity is a really nice sounding system at lower volumes. If they could figure out a way to make it more feedback resistant at higher volumes, they would be on to something.

I hope somebody is out there hard at work on just trying to build a better sounding analog dual-source system!

[AeroUSA]

I’m the opposite. I was a total anti IR, analog guy but now I’m fully invested in IR’s. I use a Tone Dexter for my acoustic and a Line 6 Helix for my electric and I’ve never gotten such great tones. For me IR’s are the future.

[BluesKing777]

Originally Posted by Beagle1

I am not a big fan of IR's, whether applied to things like reverb, or guitar amp speaker modeling, or acoustic guitar amplification. It just doesn't sound or feel quite right to me.

Fortunately, we are finally starting to see the technology move ahead with new devices like the Universal Audio OX for electric guitar amps, which attempts to better model all the nuances and response of a real speaker cabinet. Admittedly, I have no experience with the ToneDexter aside from recently hearing John Jorgenson use it live, but I definitely admire what James May is doing in trying to move the technology forward for acoustic guitar.

I really think regular analog dual-source systems are not far off from being able to satisfy most guitarists. The Maton AP5 Pro system sounds amazing whether you are fingerpicking or strumming hard. If someone could figure out a way to capture what that system is doing and make it available in an after-market solution, they would be on to something.

Taylor is getting closer with their ES2 but IMHO it really needs a second source (either a mic or an SBT) to make it sound more natural. Baggs is really, really close with the Anthem. They just need to figure out how to make the Element UST part of it sound less quacky. Maybe they could give us an Anthem Pro model made up of something like an LB6 + the Lyric. And the K&K Trinity is a really nice sounding system at lower volumes. If they could figure out a way to make it more feedback resistant at higher volumes, they would be on to something.

I hope somebody is out there hard at work on just trying to build a better sounding analog dual-source system!

Hooray! Another mention of the Maton AP5-Pro and how good it is ... I’m not the lone lunatic!

So just before, I was playing different guitars plugged in to TD as I am deciding which pickup to put in my new Waterloo. The K&K mini is leading. Just got to buy one and install.

Then I grabbed the Maton SRS808, turned off the internal mic and left undersaddle piezo on full, plugged in to TD to play with the wavemap I made recently and it is very nice.

I then bypassed the wavemap and turned the internal mic back on full, as well as the undersaddle......that sound is so real but also very natural ‘feeling’ as I play it. The mid range tweakers are just right.

So the Maton AP5-Pro system is all I want for my new Waterloo! But we can’t. And I don’t want to drill and cut holes all over the new guitar. So K&K through TD or Aura it will be...... it will be interesting because I really want to capture that Waterloo sound. I tried my Fishman Rare Earth Blend in it, sounds good but not like the AP5-Pro, and I don’t want that big thing in the guitar all the time....


BluesKing777.

[dogdog49]

Originally Posted by Beagle1

I am not a big fan of IR's, whether applied to things like reverb, or guitar amp speaker modeling, or acoustic guitar amplification. It just doesn't sound or feel quite right to me.

Fortunately, we are finally starting to see the technology move ahead with new devices like the Universal Audio OX for electric guitar amps, which attempts to better model all the nuances and response of a real speaker cabinet. Admittedly, I have no experience with the ToneDexter aside from recently hearing John Jorgenson use it live, but I definitely admire what James May is doing in trying to move the technology forward for acoustic guitar.

I really think regular analog dual-source systems are not far off from being able to satisfy most guitarists. The Maton AP5 Pro system sounds amazing whether you are fingerpicking or strumming hard. If someone could figure out a way to capture what that system is doing and make it available in an after-market solution, they would be on to something.

Taylor is getting closer with their ES2 but IMHO it really needs a second source (either a mic or an SBT) to make it sound more natural. Baggs is really, really close with the Anthem. They just need to figure out how to make the Element UST part of it sound less quacky. Maybe they could give us an Anthem Pro model made up of something like an LB6 + the Lyric. And the K&K Trinity is a really nice sounding system at lower volumes. If they could figure out a way to make it more feedback resistant at higher volumes, they would be on to something.

I hope somebody is out there hard at work on just trying to build a better sounding analog dual-source system!

Is this not the AP5 Pro as an aftermarket option?
https://www.bluebusmusic.com/product...-pickup-system

[BluesKing777]

Originally Posted by dogdog49

Is this not the AP5 Pro as an aftermarket option?
https://www.bluebusmusic.com/product...-pickup-system

Yes, that is it. But to put that in a different guitar needs a few large holes....control panel barn door plus the bridge is one piece that needs a hole cut.

The one in the link is more for upgrading an older Maton system - cleverly, they made the new ones interchangeable with older systems. The new mic comes pre-connected to the bridge.

As much as I want it for the sound, it isn’t going in my Waterloo....

BluesKing777.

[Beagle1]

Originally Posted by BluesKing777

Yes, that is it. But to put that in a different guitar needs a few large holes....control panel barn door plus the bridge is one piece that needs a hole cut.

The one in the link is more for upgrading an older Maton system - cleverly, they made the new ones interchangeable with older systems. The new mic comes pre-connected to the bridge.

As much as I want it for the sound, it isn’t going in my Waterloo....

BluesKing777.

Yup, BluesKing is correct on this! While Maton does sell the AP5 Pro as a separate unit, most people would not want to carve up their guitars to install it. This guy here did one in a Martin, and it's helpful to see what all is involved:

https://www.facebook.com/pg/theguita...71303816294551

[troggg]

Originally Posted by AndyC

Clearly you have not been antagonistic in any way, shape or form in any of your retorts or responses throughout this thread, and equally clearly my opinions and experiences from actually using this technology and expressing my view of it are worthless. I hope that makes you feel better.

The difference is it occurs to me that I may have had something to do with escalating matters while you retain the position there was nothing inflammatory in your scribbling whatsoever and that you are entirely blameless.

Your expressed view is valuable as a personal opinion which carries the same weight as anyone else's on this forum. Alas it is well short of being the last word on anything as much as you'd like it to be.

Oh and I hope Santa Claus brings me a Maton w/AP5 Pro to get back on subject.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by troggg

The difference is it occurs to me that I may have had something to do with escalating matters while you retain the position there was nothing inflammatory in your scribbling whatsoever and that you are entirely blameless.

Your expressed view is valuable as a personal opinion which carries the same weight as anyone else's on this forum. Alas it is well short of being the last word on anything as much as you'd like it to be.

Oh and I hope Santa Claus brings me a Maton w/AP5 Pro to get back on subject.

I haven't ever positioned my "valuable personal opinion" as the last word on anything, so (yet again) stop putting words in my mouth and climb down off your high horse. For the last time.

[martingitdave]

Mods: feel free to close the thread. I’ll start another one when the mood strikes.

Cheers

[NoodleFingers]

Too bad, too, that James seems to be away from his computer these days. I'd have loved to get his thoughts about a much more compact (including onboard) non-trainable ToneDexter.

[gfirob]

I think that's is what the Aura tries to be, but I guess you just can't fit enough horse power in a package that size. But as long as people are using pedals for every kind of sound enhancement you can imagine from reverb to harmonies, I don't think something the size of the Tonedexter is much of a burden. I'd rather have the quality of sound than the (compromised) convenience of an in-guitar system (especially if I had to cut a big square hole in my guitar). Maybe it will come to us eventually along with flying cars, radio watches and peace on earth...

[BluesKing777]

Another angle.....

I have a couple of guitars that Tonedexter has raised the sound quality enormously. For example, I bought a Martin 000-17 because I wanted a black Waterloo when they came out and the shop didn’t have any left, so....black Martin with white guard it is. So I next got a Fishman undersaddle so I could run it through Aura, but I never got a good sound match.

Guitar was on the “gone list” until I made a wavefile with Tonedexter! Sounds beautiful, not sure if it is actually nicer plugged than not....little bit of reverb...

I wonder what those guitars I have sold over the years would sound like now in TD?

BluesKing777.

[jonfields45]

I think the IR pedal is the smaller part of what Tonedexter brings to the table. The training procedure and software, that lets you make your own IR at home relatively easily, is quite impressive. To my eye, it is about the right size for a single pedal to embrace processing, boost, and tuner. For me it would be perfect if they added reverb...

[Monsum]

One feature I'd like to see in a future versions of Tonedexter or equivalent is the ability to load third party IR files. I've been using this method with plugins on a computer with fairly good results. I know that in theory, our own customised IRs should match our guitars better but it seems like a properly made impulse sounds good on a variety of guitars.
Once the IR technology is more common, there might be a day when almost every acoustic guitar DI box or preamp or multi-effect is equipped with this matching (pickup with a mic) process.

My second comment is that I believe a good sounding UST pickup is valuable on its own merits. It's not natural but it still might be appealing sound in many settings. I actually like the sound of the LR Baggs VTC pickup (consisting of the piezo element) in one of my guitars, it complements my other guitar with the K&K+Tonedexter combination.

[varmonter]

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

I see only one viable alternative for me in that list. I don't understand spending thou$and$ on a fine guitar only to run it through DSP circuitry to make it sound like something it ain't.

I am kinda in this school. My friend uses one of those
in guitar aura thingy and i have tried the tonedexter ..
In order to not sound overprocessed i feel one has to
dial back the IR so much as to not make it noticeable ,
in which case why have it at all. I still think a good preamp
and judicious eq sounds better. And of course a mic when suitable.
My take is this technology is still young and has a ways to go.