K&K vs JJB

[steveyam]

Ok, thanks guys for the advice given on another thread re soundboard pickups.

But now, I have a dilema. I'm going to use either the K&K pure mini or the JJB equivalent, the prestige 330. For use on my 12 string, I want to maximise bass, so I'm using the 20mm size transducers.

So, just how close are these two manufacturers/pickups? like, are they made in the same factory? does anyone know about their respective build qualities and similarities? What's different? what's the same? are they the same pickup with a different name on them?

Basically, the JJB is a fraction of the price of the K&K. And I'm very interested to know why. There's many examples in life of being able to buy something that will do exactly the same as something very similar costing twice the price, equally there are many examples of 'you get what you pay for'. It would be very easy for me to convince myself that either situation was right in this instance. But why should I guess? hopefully someone out there has the inside knowledge, or at least can tell me about their experiences that may throw some light on this. In particular, have you fitted both of these types of pickups? what did you find? was one better than the other?

[chitz]

I have fitted/used both for years. My ears can't tell any difference.
They both sound fine.

There's only one way to really tell them apart and that is with proper scientific testing. I would love to see the data.
And even then, preference is going to be subjective.

Some would have you believe you get less with a JJB because of the difference in price, but that has not been my experience at all.

And the hype about ones support vs. the other is exactly that hype. Again, they both do a good job in that department as well.

[mutantrock]

Wouldn't surprise me if the transducers discs come from the same electronics manufacturer but are wired up by these companies. These type of transducers are inexpensive and readily available in quantity. Probably would not be too complicated for a amateur to build their own.

[rwskaggs]

I've owned both in my acoustics, and I've gone with the JJB Prestige 330s only because of the price difference - I certainly can't hear one!

BTW, Jesse at JJB is a great support & technical person!

[royd]

Originally Posted by mutantrock

Wouldn't surprise me if the transducers discs come from the same electronics manufacturer but are wired up by these companies. These type of transducers are inexpensive and readily available in quantity. Probably would not be too complicated for a amateur to build their own.

true enough... you can purchase the individual disks for about $.50 each (I think at Radio Shack) and then solder a wire to the center and the edge of the crystal. I've done 4 or 5 of them and mounted a few in guitars and two in my daughter's celtic harp. The crystals are not all that consistent though so I would expect that either K&K or JJB test them or they pay more for them to come pre-tested from the manufacturer to meet their criteria.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by steveyam

...For use on my 12 string, I want to maximise bass, so I'm using the 20mm size transducers.

Hi Steve...
I think you may be assuming bigger sensors mean 'more-bass', and I'm not sure that correlates directly as pure bass tone. It might just mean more or uncontrollable boominess, or over cranked treble or mid range as well.

Were it me, I'd call Dieter at K&K (the inventor of the K&K transducers) and explain your situation and ask what his opinion would be...he has custom wired 4 and 6 sensor systems for people with unusual instruments (harp guitars, 8 string classical guitars etc).

I use K&K Pure Western Mini in all 4 of my guitars, and they don't lack bass response; all have bass in abundance to the point that I trim it by 20-25% in the preamps…

The reason I didn't choose the original Pure Western was the uncontrollable bass from the larger sensors.

Perhaps Dieter could wire you a system with the smaller sensors on the treble and mid pickups and a larger element on the bass?

It's just a late Sunday thought…but it might be worth a phone call.

[steveyam]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Steve...
I think you may be assuming bigger sensors mean 'more-bass', and I'm not sure that correlates directly as pure bass tone. It might just mean more or uncontrollable boominess, or over cranked treble or mid range as well.

Were it me, I'd call Dieter at K&K (the inventor of the K&K transducers) and explain your situation and ask what his opinion would be...he has custom wired 4 and 6 sensor systems for people with unusual instruments (harp guitars, 8 string classical guitars etc).

I use K&K Pure Western Mini in all 4 of my guitars, and they don't lack bass response; all have bass in abundance to the point that I trim it by 20-25% in the preamps…

The reason I didn't choose the original Pure Western was the uncontrollable bass from the larger sensors.

Perhaps Dieter could wire you a system with the smaller sensors on the treble and mid pickups and a larger element on the bass?

It's just a late Sunday thought…but it might be worth a phone call.

Hi Larry,

Thanks, as ever for your valued input. Ok, I had already emailed Jesse at JJB regarding pickup choice and he said:

"Generally, I recommend the 20mm size for 12 strings. They can be overbearing in bass-heavy 6 strings but they sound great in 12 strings, where the bass is typically not as defined."

From my own experience I know that 12 strings tend to sound bass light 1) because of the additional octave strings and treble doubles, and 2) the lower action required tends to choke off a certain amount of bass, further promoting a bass light response. For sure, the bass 'lightness' of 12 strings is something that I am acutely aware of, and I want to do all I can to achieve a good bass response. So, to kinda answer your question/charge, I'm not assuming that a bigger sensor will give more bass, I'm just going on Jesse's recommendation that the 20mm sensor will give more bass for use with a 12 string.

As stated, my question here relates to the differences (if any!) between K&K and JJB. You got any input or experience on that one? Cheers

[steveyam]

Originally Posted by royd

true enough... you can purchase the individual disks for about $.50 each (I think at Radio Shack) and then solder a wire to the center and the edge of the crystal. I've done 4 or 5 of them and mounted a few in guitars and two in my daughter's celtic harp. The crystals are not all that consistent though so I would expect that either K&K or JJB test them or they pay more for them to come pre-tested from the manufacturer to meet their criteria.

I think you have a good point. As an electronics engineer it would be tempting to buy the 'raw' discs and do a relatively simple soldering job myself. But what if they all have different output levels and are hand tested and graded for use by the likes of K&K, JJB etc? I don't think I'd go down that route unless someone had more data about the consistency re the output levels of these discs.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by steveyam

...You got any input or experience on that one? Cheers

Hi Steve...

Not yet.

The smallest investment in my pickup rigs is the pickup. The only part of my rigs cheaper than the pickups/internal mics themselves are the cables used to plug them into the direct boxes and PA...and when you figure my guitar cables cost $30 each, the interface from the preamp to amp $20 each, and the mic cable to the snake $40 - they are even about equal to what I pay for a K&K Pure Western mini.

Preamps, and amps, all cost far more than the pickups and internal microphones, and I tend to install a decent pickup system and leave it in a guitar for 5-10 years. I'm not trying to save money on parts. And if someone like me wants a dual source system, K&K's pickups arrive with a prewired stereo jack for a phantom powered mic - from the factory.

One of these days when a student or friend will show up with a non-critical guitar they want to play occasionally through a PA. I will buy them a JJB 3-element pickup and have it installed as an experiment.

I'll happily pay for the system to be put in someone's inexpensive guitar just to see what it sounds like compared to all the K&Ks I'm surrounded by (about 2 dozen currently). None of mine are available to experiment with - as they are all in use regularly.

All my current guitars, and their systems, are dual source (pickup and internal mic) and they all are in serious weekly playing situations. JJB offers nothing in dual source options.

[steveyam]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Steve...

Not yet.

The smallest investment in my pickup rigs is the pickup. The only part of my rigs cheaper than the pickups/internal mics themselves are the cables used to plug them into the direct boxes and PA...and when you figure my guitar cables cost $30 each, the interface from the preamp to amp $20 each, and the mic cable to the snake $40 - they are even about equal to what I pay for a K&K Pure Western mini.

Preamps, and amps, all cost far more than the pickups and internal microphones, and I tend to install a decent pickup system and leave it in a guitar for 5-10 years. I'm not trying to save money on parts. And if someone like me wants a dual source system, K&K's pickups arrive with a prewired stereo jack for a phantom powered mic - from the factory.

One of these days when a student or friend will show up with a non-critical guitar they want to play occasionally through a PA. I will buy them a JJB 3-element pickup and have it installed as an experiment.

I'll happily pay for the system to be put in someone's inexpensive guitar just to see what it sounds like compared to all the K&Ks I'm surrounded by (about 2 dozen currently). None of mine are available to experiment with - as they are all in use regularly.

All my current guitars, and their systems, are dual source (pickup and internal mic) and they all are in serious weekly playing situations. JJB offers nothing in dual source options.

Makes sense.

[Georgiapicker]

It seems like the Elite 430 or whatever its called from JJB would still be cheaper than the Pure Mini. Any particular reason, other than to save $25 that you wanted the 330 over that? And to JJB users, would either the 430 or the 330 need a pre-amp or work well without one?

[chitz]

Originally Posted by Georgiapicker

It seems like the Elite 430 or whatever its called from JJB would still be cheaper than the Pure Mini. Any particular reason, other than to save $25 that you wanted the 330 over that? And to JJB users, would either the 430 or the 330 need a pre-amp or work well without one?

All soundboard transducers perform best with the benefit of a pre amp/ PARA DI.

But SOME sound fine without.

[Georgiapicker]

Originally Posted by chitz

All soundboard transducers perform best with the benefit of a pre amp/ PARA DI.

But SOME sound fine without.

Does SOME include the 330 or 430?

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Georgiapicker

Does SOME include the 330 or 430?

HI GeoPicker...

Sound Board Transducers are hot enough signal to be used without a preamp, but they all improve their tone dramatically with the addition of a preamp.

My suggestion to players has been to try them with out a preamp and then drop by my house and we pull out my UltraSound and I have them play it without the preamp and let them adjust the controls.

Then we pull out a ParaDI and an UltraDI and let them play and adjust. They all go away knowing it sounds quite a bit better with the preamp than without.

There seems to be a tendency for people to try to scrape the bottom of the barrel price-wise with pickup systems, and see how little they can get away with. I find that the pricier way to approach it...

Actually the cheapest way is don't put any pickup in and just make people be uber-quiet and listen harder. Doesn't work in larger settings, but it is free.

[kendallhadden]

I've installed and used both the K&K PWM and the JJB 330 15mm. Both of these pickups have been used extensively from the stage and I can't tell the difference between the two. Both sound fantastic through either of the K&K preamps or through any preamp basically. I haven't personally dealt with K&K much, but Jesse at JJB is as good as you will find when it comes to customer service. He will do his best to work out any problem you have with his pickup system and will build it about any way you want it. If you want a stereo endpin, he will build it. I highly recommend JJB and it has nothing to do with the price of the pickup. In fact I just purchased an LRBaggs Anthem to try in one of my guitars. I don't really like how the guitar sounds with the Anthem pickup and it will be taken out soon to purchase a JJB 330 pickup.