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  #31  
Old 10-12-2020, 11:27 AM
FrankHudson FrankHudson is offline
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Originally Posted by catdaddy View Post
In the context of 1966 when it was released it was innovative and daring. While I can appreciate its quality and understand why some consider it to be a masterpiece of pop music, I just don't care much for most of the songs or the sound of it.
One of my favorite music quotes of all time was made in the 19th century by Bill Nye (no, not that one, this Bill Nye was a contemporary of Mark Twain):

"I hear that Wagner's music is better than it sounds."

Now I understand that joke's intent. I laugh first. But there's a corollary to the statement, whatever it's intent: we sometimes stop our listening at some superficial level, foregoing the ability to draw from interesting concepts that lurk beneath, because we don't like the first (or second) things that strikes us about about it.

Now, I'm not jumping on you, though I made this a quote reply. This is more at a general observation to musicians as music listeners. I'm nearly as prone the next one of us in listening to what I want to listen to most of the time: life is only so long, music should be about pleasure (even angry music or music about frustration has the ability to please).

I like rougher, funkier music. I'm a lousy vocalist, so I'm not going to go to Pet Sounds to get ideas on how to arrange harmony vocals or cop the falsetto lead vocal lines. I like to think I'm broad in my taste for instrumentation, but there's a reason I'm typing this on a guitar forum.

But there is stuff to steal (excuse me, I mistyped: there are things to inspire our own completely original compositions ) from Pet Sounds: those unusual melodic contours that the OP found so odd, some of those chord movements in the harmony vocals would sound nice transposed to guitar voicings.

It's a electric guitar piece, and an earlier Brian Wilson tune, but there's this:

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  #32  
Old 10-12-2020, 12:29 PM
rockabilly69 rockabilly69 is offline
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Originally Posted by jseth View Post
...I can tell you that "Tumbleweed" was (and still is) one of my favorites of Elton's work... I loved how he finally let his guitar player (Caleb Quaye?) off the leash a bit for that record. The incongruity didn't escape me, but, in Southern California in the early 70's, that was a well-received record!
It was well received by me too. I love that album, everything on it. In my solo sets I still do "Country Comfort", and it goes over wonderfully. The interplay between the drums, bass, and the riffing electric guitar on the intro of "Well Known Gun", gets me every time I hear it. Elton was heavily inspired by Leon Russell and you can hear it all over this album.
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  #33  
Old 10-12-2020, 12:36 PM
TeleBluesMan TeleBluesMan is offline
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Speaking of The Beach Boys, here's a pretty cool 1964 concert:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_XSklVFZEg
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  #34  
Old 10-12-2020, 05:18 PM
catdaddy catdaddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankHudson View Post
One of my favorite music quotes of all time was made in the 19th century by Bill Nye (no, not that one, this Bill Nye was a contemporary of Mark Twain):

"I hear that Wagner's music is better than it sounds."

Now I understand that joke's intent. I laugh first. But there's a corollary to the statement, whatever it's intent: we sometimes stop our listening at some superficial level, foregoing the ability to draw from interesting concepts that lurk beneath, because we don't like the first (or second) things that strikes us about about it.

Now, I'm not jumping on you, though I made this a quote reply. This is more at a general observation to musicians as music listeners. I'm nearly as prone the next one of us in listening to what I want to listen to most of the time: life is only so long, music should be about pleasure (even angry music or music about frustration has the ability to please).

I like rougher, funkier music. I'm a lousy vocalist, so I'm not going to go to Pet Sounds to get ideas on how to arrange harmony vocals or cop the falsetto lead vocal lines. I like to think I'm broad in my taste for instrumentation, but there's a reason I'm typing this on a guitar forum.

But there is stuff to steal (excuse me, I mistyped: there are things to inspire our own completely original compositions ) from Pet Sounds: those unusual melodic contours that the OP found so odd, some of those chord movements in the harmony vocals would sound nice transposed to guitar voicings.

It's a electric guitar piece, and an earlier Brian Wilson tune, but there's this:

Your insights are right on. If we dig deeper and listen more patiently most music will deliver something worthwhile. Allowing my less noble nature to direct me, I require a "hook" to my ear before I'm willing to commit to the time or effort of serious listening. I will shamelessly admit to preferring some pretty objectively crappy music to some "masterpieces".
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  #35  
Old 10-18-2020, 08:53 AM
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Obviously music is in the long run, a subjective medium and thus any music is going to be subject to favorable and unfavorable critique (as it should be)

Perhaps though some historical perspective ?

In the mid 60's "Rock" music, aka "Rock & Roll" was simply a new moniker for the changing face of "Pop" music,,,, or "Popular Music".
As such it was a fairly diverse "genre" Especially in light of what could be heard on any single given " Popular Radio" channel .
It more or less encompassed what has now morphed into multi sub genre's of things like .... Folk Rock , Jazz Rock, Blues Rock, Hard Rock, Classic Rock, Motown, Psychedelic Rock and the beginnings of things like Metal, and "Alt Rock"

Now:
As to why Pet Sounds is considered to be a seminal album is arguably more for the historical importance in production than of the songs themselves. In fact according to Wiki "initially met with a lukewarm critical and commercial response in the United States, peaking at number 10 on Billboard Top LPs chart."
But is considered as being one of the first" concept" type albums, one of the first "self produced" albums (by the artist/s) And one of the first to bring in a number of different musical sounds and elements, not normally associated with a Popular or Rock production.
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  #36  
Old 10-19-2020, 12:27 PM
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Once again I'm reminded why I don't come to internet forums for the music reviews.
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  #37  
Old 10-23-2020, 06:37 PM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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I see that Pet Sounds is #2 on Rolling Stone's latest and Greatest 500 Albums, just behind Marvin Gaye's "What's Going On".

I've been listening to it a bit since this thread popped up. I've never been a big Beach Boys fan. I find their music a bit too sweet, or something.

I can't, of course, put myself back into 1966, when it probably sounded more revolutionary. But it's a pretty good album. There is something they do with the lead vocal to make it sound fuller and more lush and chorus-y that I just don't like. And so many bop-bop sounds. I know that's the Beach Boy sound, and sold millions of records, so it's clearly very popular.

I do like the different instruments and different approaches to song structure. One of the comments I seem to see is that with Pet Sounds the BB moved away from boy-girl/car/surf themes, but it still seems like boy-girl songs to me. I guess the comment is meant to indicate a more evolved approach to the subject, and I'd agree with that.
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  #38  
Old 10-23-2020, 06:43 PM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post
Well, item number one in the discussion should be that Sgt. Pepper's was inspired by Pet Sounds. It is just pertinent.

Bob
Pertinent as well, is that the Pet Sounds' era Beach Boys were very influenced by Rubber Soul. Seems like a bit of a back and forth going on there.
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  #39  
Old 10-23-2020, 06:57 PM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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Originally Posted by reeve21 View Post
Since today was the first time you listened to the whole thing, maybe give it a few more spins?
Good advice, for sure. A couple of listens isn't quite enough to evaluate it. I've listened to it maybe 5 times in the last week and my impressions have changed, for the better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly View Post
As they say, you have to be the first or the best. Pet Sounds was the first.
But was it really the first? To me it was just another step along the road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankHudson View Post
Lastly there's the "I heard Shakespeare was this great and original writer, and then I went to see one of his plays and it was full of clichés!" factor.
lol. I went to see Hamlet and it was all, "to be or not to be" - c'mon, man, stop plagiarizing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankHudson View Post
One of my favorite music quotes of all time was made in the 19th century by Bill Nye (no, not that one, this Bill Nye was a contemporary of Mark Twain):

"I hear that Wagner's music is better than it sounds."

Now I understand that joke's intent...
I'd be interested in your thoughts on that's joke's intent.

I always thought it meant that if, instead of just listening to the notes, one put it into context, and understood the history around it, it would be more meaningful. Sort of like a lot of paintings that otherwise don't stand out.
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  #40  
Old 10-24-2020, 06:02 PM
FrankHudson FrankHudson is offline
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Asking about the "They say that Richard Wagner's music is better than it sounds."

Quote:
Originally Posted by mc1 View Post


I'd be interested in your thoughts on that's joke's intent.

I always thought it meant that if, instead of just listening to the notes, one put it into context, and understood the history around it, it would be more meaningful. Sort of like a lot of paintings that otherwise don't stand out.
My hearing of the quote is that it's one of those two things at the same time deals ("Negative Capability" as John Keats had it). So it means that some things get praised intellectually for something that they can't deliver experientially to an audience, or all audiences all the time--but it's also a straight up joke, getting a laugh on the emperor has no clothes trope.

Here's a nice short discussion of how the quote was reused by it's apparent originator and then by Mark Twain

Quote Investigator (a great site for checking on quotes in general) on this one/
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  #41  
Old 10-24-2020, 06:48 PM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankHudson View Post
Asking about the "They say that Richard Wagner's music is better than it sounds."

My hearing of the quote is that it's one of those two things at the same time deals ("Negative Capability" as John Keats had it). So it means that some things get praised intellectually for something that they can't deliver experientially to an audience, or all audiences all the time--but it's also a straight up joke, getting a laugh on the emperor has no clothes trope.

Here's a nice short discussion of how the quote was reused by it's apparent originator and then by Mark Twain
Thanks so much for that page. I can be slow at digesting new information, so I will need to read and re-read it, then think about it. But my initial impression is that my earlier impression was mistaken. So much to think about, like negative capability.

I agree with the straight up joke, which is a good one, and then mathematically squared in humour by its deeper meanings. I'm a bit of a Twain fan so thanks again.

edit: so, if my secondary analysis is correct, it's a bit of a slam on Wagner. Well, it will take a bit of time for my mind to re-orient that. I suspect I can do it, as I'm not a big Wagner fan.

Funny how I've spent years liking that quote but not understanding it.

Last edited by mc1; 10-24-2020 at 07:09 PM.
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  #42  
Old 10-24-2020, 07:13 PM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankHudson View Post
It's a electric guitar piece, and an earlier Brian Wilson tune, but there's this:

What a tasteful and magnificent player.
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