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Old 06-16-2019, 01:22 PM
bobbyg67 bobbyg67 is offline
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Default k&k must go

i've got k&k minis in my martin d-18 and 0m28. i recently purchased a new taylor 714 ce with the v bracing and es2 system and i love it!. plug and play at church with very little eq. also playing out through an aer60/3 lined out to a 10 inch qsc speaker. i run through a redeye twin so i can be set up with two guitars.

problem is the k&ks with the martins. too much variance in eq'ing as opposed to the simplicity of the 714ce. i really like the volume and tone controls on the taylor. what pickup do you recommend for the martins? price isn't really an issue. i just want usable guitars on stage with no feedback and some eq tone contol. i know there is a solution just don't know what it is.

please don't tell me the k&ks can't be removed as my luthier has already done this on other guitars and told me no problem.
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Old 06-16-2019, 01:29 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Originally Posted by bobbyg67 View Post
i've got k&k minis in my martin d-18 and 0m28. i recently purchased a new taylor 714 ce with the v bracing and es2 system and i love it!. plug and play at church with very little eq. also playing out through an aer60/3 lined out to a 10 inch qsc speaker. i run through a redeye twin so i can be set up with two guitars.

problem is the k&ks with the martins. too much variance in eq'ing as opposed to the simplicity of the 714ce. i really like the volume and tone controls on the taylor. what pickup do you recommend for the martins? price isn't really an issue. i just want usable guitars on stage with no feedback and some eq tone contol. i know there is a solution just don't know what it is.

please don't tell me the k&ks can't be removed as my luthier has already done this on other guitars and told me no problem.
You could try a Trance Amulet M-VT system, as I've done in several guitars. It works well and is quite feedback resistant. Look in my signature guitars and ask away ...
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Taylor 717e ES2
Larrivee D-40M Legacy
Huss & Dalton TD-R
Martin D-18 (Schatten HFN Artist Plus 2)
Martin D Jr (B-Band A1.2N)
Taylor 614ce ES2
Taylor 618e ES2
Taylor 356ce ES2
Taylor 322ce ES2
Taylor GS Mini-e Koa ES2
Epiphone DR-500MCE (Shadow eSonic2)
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Old 06-16-2019, 02:38 PM
Irish Pennant Irish Pennant is offline
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The Fishman Matrix Infinity, IMO sounds pretty darn good unless you're looking for "My Guitar Only Louder" which isn't a quest of mine. It's fairly unobtrusive, no barn door and has been around long enough to prove it's reliability.
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Old 06-16-2019, 02:58 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Originally Posted by Irish Pennant View Post
The Fishman Matrix Infinity, IMO sounds pretty darn good unless you're looking for "My Guitar Only Louder" which isn't a quest of mine. It's fairly unobtrusive, no barn door and has been around long enough to prove it's reliability.
... and couple it with a Fishman Aura Pedal or ToneDexter and it's dynamite!
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Taylor 717e ES2
Larrivee D-40M Legacy
Huss & Dalton TD-R
Martin D-18 (Schatten HFN Artist Plus 2)
Martin D Jr (B-Band A1.2N)
Taylor 614ce ES2
Taylor 618e ES2
Taylor 356ce ES2
Taylor 322ce ES2
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Old 06-16-2019, 03:42 PM
bobbyg67 bobbyg67 is offline
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sprucetop, whats the difference between the hfn and the trance? which do you prefer? does the hfn have on board controls? i like some control at the guitar
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Old 06-16-2019, 04:00 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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sprucetop, whats the difference between the hfn and the trance? which do you prefer? does the hfn have on board controls? i like some control at the guitar
In my experience, from standard installation procedures for the two, the Trance has more bass response and a more complex overall tone, and does so without EQing the living heck out of the system. There must be a reason that Neil Young, Jackson Browne, Paul Simon, and Sheryl Crow use Trance systems, and it sure can't be that they get cash for endorsing Trance products because I get the feeling that Trance is the best-kept secret in acoustic-guitar amplification.

The Schatten HFN Artist Plus 2, which I have installed in my Martin D-18, needs significant +Bass EQing to sound decent. This HFN, top-of-the-line system has a soundhole-module with two Volume controls, Channel 1 for the as-supplied HFN, and Channel 2 for an additional pickup source of some sort, which I feel is necessary to get a really good amplified tone from the system.
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Emerald X20 (Element VTC)
Yamaha LL-TA TransAcoustic
Taylor 717e ES2
Larrivee D-40M Legacy
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Martin D-18 (Schatten HFN Artist Plus 2)
Martin D Jr (B-Band A1.2N)
Taylor 614ce ES2
Taylor 618e ES2
Taylor 356ce ES2
Taylor 322ce ES2
Taylor GS Mini-e Koa ES2
Epiphone DR-500MCE (Shadow eSonic2)
Ovation Elite Plus Contour (OpProStudio)
Ovation VXT Electric

Last edited by SpruceTop; 06-16-2019 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 06-16-2019, 04:12 PM
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Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
You could try a Trance Amulet M-VT system, as I've done in several guitars. It works well and is quite feedback resistant. Look in my signature guitars and ask away ...
Installing a Trance over a previous K&K install is very likely not to work - the Trance tape does not like the superglue residue from the K&K install. Some people report they can sand down the bridge plate enough to make it work, but it's not a slam dunk. If you're having a luthier doing the work, and he's willing do a lot of sanding, it may work. My attempts have failed. Trance themselves say it is unlikely to work.

It's hard to know what the issue is that you're having, but in general, SBTs are a bit pickier about interactions with the sound system, and therefore may require more EQ work to sound good than an undersaddle. That's going to be true of just about any SBT, K&K, Trance, HFN, Dazzo, etc, etc. Also, the K&K is sensitive to impedance, so if you're plugging into different systems and getting different results, that may be a factor. A solution to this issue is to have your own preamp/DI that you can rely on.

Do you need to have multiple guitars? If you like the way the Taylor works amplified, maybe a 2nd Taylor?
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Last edited by Doug Young; 06-16-2019 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 06-16-2019, 04:30 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Installing a Trance over a previous K&K install is very likely not to work - the Trance tape does not like the superglue residue from the K&K install. Some people report they can sand down the bridge plate enough to make it work, but it's not a slam dunk. If you're having a luthier doing the work, and he's willing do a lot of sanding, it may work. My attempts have failed. Trance themselves say it is unlikely to work.

It's hard to know what the issue is that you're having, but in general, SBTs are a bit pickier about interactions with the sound system, and therefore may require more EQ work to sound good than an undersaddle. That's going to be true of just about any SBT, K&K, Trance, HFN, Dazzo, etc, etc. Also, the K&K is sensitive to impedance, so if you're plugging into different systems and getting different results, that may be a factor. A solution to this issue is to have your own preamp/DI that you can rely on.

Do you need to have multiple guitars? If you like the way the Taylor works amplified, maybe a 2nd Taylor?
Thanks, Doug, I somehow missed the previous superglued installation of the K&K system.
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Emerald X20 (Element VTC)
Yamaha LL-TA TransAcoustic
Taylor 717e ES2
Larrivee D-40M Legacy
Huss & Dalton TD-R
Martin D-18 (Schatten HFN Artist Plus 2)
Martin D Jr (B-Band A1.2N)
Taylor 614ce ES2
Taylor 618e ES2
Taylor 356ce ES2
Taylor 322ce ES2
Taylor GS Mini-e Koa ES2
Epiphone DR-500MCE (Shadow eSonic2)
Ovation Elite Plus Contour (OpProStudio)
Ovation VXT Electric
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  #9  
Old 06-16-2019, 04:32 PM
RogerPease RogerPease is offline
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Rather than remove the K&K you can go in deeper and upgrade it to an Ultra Tonic pickup
from James May Engineering. It worked very well on my CEO7 taming the crazy EQ required.

Just a thought...
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Old 06-16-2019, 04:34 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Originally Posted by RogerPease View Post
Rather than remove the K&K you can go in deeper and upgrade it to an Ultra Tonic pickup
from James May Engineering. It worked very well on my CEO7 taming the crazy EQ required.

Just a thought...
Good suggestion!
__________________
Emerald X20 (Element VTC)
Yamaha LL-TA TransAcoustic
Taylor 717e ES2
Larrivee D-40M Legacy
Huss & Dalton TD-R
Martin D-18 (Schatten HFN Artist Plus 2)
Martin D Jr (B-Band A1.2N)
Taylor 614ce ES2
Taylor 618e ES2
Taylor 356ce ES2
Taylor 322ce ES2
Taylor GS Mini-e Koa ES2
Epiphone DR-500MCE (Shadow eSonic2)
Ovation Elite Plus Contour (OpProStudio)
Ovation VXT Electric
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  #11  
Old 06-16-2019, 07:16 PM
DownUpDave DownUpDave is online now
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I am just weighing in to agree with you about the Taylor ES2 pick up system. My 512 is pure plug and play, I've goofed around with a Baggs Venue DI in the chain and it is totally redundant.

Good luck with finding a solution to the D18
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  #12  
Old 06-16-2019, 07:17 PM
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dogdog49 dogdog49 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Installing a Trance over a previous K&K install is very likely not to work - the Trance tape does not like the superglue residue from the K&K install. Some people report they can sand down the bridge plate enough to make it work, but it's not a slam dunk. If you're having a luthier doing the work, and he's willing do a lot of sanding, it may work. My attempts have failed. Trance themselves say it is unlikely to work.

It's hard to know what the issue is that you're having, but in general, SBTs are a bit pickier about interactions with the sound system, and therefore may require more EQ work to sound good than an undersaddle. That's going to be true of just about any SBT, K&K, Trance, HFN, Dazzo, etc, etc. Also, the K&K is sensitive to impedance, so if you're plugging into different systems and getting different results, that may be a factor. A solution to this issue is to have your own preamp/DI that you can rely on.

Do you need to have multiple guitars? If you like the way the Taylor works amplified, maybe a 2nd Taylor?
Hi Doug. Do Dazzos have the same problem as Trances with installation where K&K's have been previously installed?
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Old 06-16-2019, 07:43 PM
Gordon Currie Gordon Currie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogdog49 View Post
Hi Doug. Do Dazzos have the same problem as Trances with installation where K&K's have been previously installed?
I'm not Doug, but I replaced a K+K in a guitar with a Dazzo. Note that the Dazzo uses epoxy rather than the tape of Trance and Schatten.
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Old 06-16-2019, 11:31 PM
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Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogdog49 View Post
Hi Doug. Do Dazzos have the same problem as Trances with installation where K&K's have been previously installed?
I have installed Dazzos (well, Teddy installed them) over previous K&Ks without any issue. My guess is the Trance issue has to do with the tape they use.
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Fingerstyle Christmas Tunes: A DADGAD Christmas
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Old 06-17-2019, 12:50 PM
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varmonter varmonter is offline
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On the other side of things you could install
a sunrise , a baggs m80, blackangel or some
other high quality soundhole pickup.
These are easily removed when you buy a different
guitar,( and you will) also you can leave the kk installed
and either wire it as a dual source or for when you
want to use it . the baggs m80 i use in my custom
shop taylor sounds good no matter what i plug
it into. I use it at open mics and when i sit in with
folks. it requires very little fussing. I am done with
sbt piezo pups. For the most part they require too much
outboard gear and are inconsistant. When you have to
turn it up they fail miserably. The few times you get them
dialed in just right they sound sweet. Then you spend
the next dozen times trying to chase that elusive
tone. Most of the posts you read hear are about
how to tame a kk or other sbt piezo pup. All the gizmos
and eq required to get "the sound" only to be disapointed.
Soundhole pups have come a long way since
lawrence had that little spring steel pup
30 yrs ago. Some like the m80 dont have that "magnetic sound"
and will reproduce percussive taps and the like.
Really worth checking out. Since i came over from the piezo
" dark side" .. Ive spent less time worrying about my tone
and more time worrying about my playing.
Only thing is most dont have onboard eq like you wanted.
but i find i usually plug into di and tweak a few knobs
on the board and im done for the night.
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