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  #136  
Old 03-19-2015, 07:16 PM
Psalad Psalad is offline
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Originally Posted by Fran Guidry View Post
Well, there's this thing called threshold of audibility, ya see. Do you think you can hear the difference between .0001 THD and .00000001 THD? Between .01 dB at 17khz vs -.01 dB at 17khz? These differences won't null, after all.

Heck, I have yet to find objective evidence that humans can hear the difference between 44.1/16 and "high res" audio at higher sample rates and bit depth. Plenty of anecdote, no evidence.

That's the point of same source level matched clips: do the differences exceed the threshold of audibility? There's no other way to measure this than by collecting a bunch of double blinded comparisons, at least none I know.

Fran
I firmly agree the burden of proof is on those who suggest there is an audible difference. I'm unaware of a single known instance where someone has been able to tell the difference between 44.1/16 and 96/24 (or even 192/24) under normal conditions. You can easily hear the difference if you crank the volume up and only listen to the last few milliseconds of a fade. No problem. But that's not a real difference, at normal listening volume.

I believe the great majority cannot hear the difference between 44.1/16 and 320kbps mp3 except in very specific circumstances.

I think Neil Young and his Pono are bunk, period. The only real difference is if they are doing mastering that is not so peak limited that would be an audible difference.

My opinion comes from my own discovery. Count me as one who could DEFINITELY hear the difference when I first started recording at 96k... there is "something there"... well after doing a few a/b/x tests my confidence is gone, my understanding of confirmation bias cemented, and life became more simple.

Now I try and make my recordings sound as great as possible and no longer blame the gear.
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  #137  
Old 03-20-2015, 09:10 AM
Wengr Wengr is offline
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Concerning sample rates:
http://www.lavryengineering.com/pdfs...lity_audio.pdf
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  #138  
Old 03-20-2015, 06:59 PM
norsehorse norsehorse is offline
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Arrow Recording Classical Guitar

Recording at An Die Music in Baltimore. Two Rode NTR ribbon microphones into Pueblo preamps.



Here's a picture: https://www.facebook.com/ArtsLaureat...type=3&theater
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  #139  
Old 03-20-2015, 07:53 PM
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That's very nice!
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  #140  
Old 03-20-2015, 08:01 PM
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The person who revived this thread asked who had updated their setup, and I did make a pretty major revision late last year, moving to a new Mac Pro, which only directly supports thunderbolt. That led to a move away from my individual components and AES-based setup to the new Apogee Ensemble Thunderbolt, reducing the footprint of the studio down to a pretty compact setup, compared to the mess of wires and rack units I had before. I had to snap a photo of it when it was mostly done, because it will never look this neat and clean again:

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  #141  
Old 03-20-2015, 08:20 PM
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KevWind KevWind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
The person who revived this thread asked who had updated their setup, and I did make a pretty major revision late last year, moving to a new Mac Pro, which only directly supports thunderbolt. That led to a move away from my individual components and AES-based setup to the new Apogee Ensemble Thunderbolt, reducing the footprint of the studio down to a pretty compact setup, compared to the mess of wires and rack units I had before. I had to snap a photo of it when it was mostly done, because it will never look this neat and clean again:
What display is that, it looks extra wide. Gotta love the M7 I know everybody always has opinions but with the reputation for excellence the Barefoots have. I wonder if the pice' de resistance' might be a pair of Iso Acoustic speaker stands to replace the mini tiger house's. The have received rave reviews. .

http://www.isoacoustics.com/index.php
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  #142  
Old 03-20-2015, 08:25 PM
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What display is that it look extra wide
yeah, it's great! LG Ultrawide. 21:9 ratio, 3440 x 1440, almost, but not quite 2 monitors wide in one. It replaced my previous dual monitor setup, and got rid of the divide down the middle between monitors. I'm happier about this addition than any other part of the system.
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  #143  
Old 03-20-2015, 08:28 PM
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Fran asked for someone to post a level-matched comparison of two preamps, and I happen to have such a thing. I recorded this when I was setting up the new Apogee thunderbolt-based system, and wondered how the built-in preamps compared to my trusty Great River. The GR runs $2000-2500ish, I forget, so around $1000 per channel. The Apogee is $3K for the entire box, 8 preamps, converters, etc, so maybe estimate $100-200 per channel for just the preamps? Just a wild guess.

The Apogee allows you to plug in a line input, completely bypassing its preamps, so I was able to record 2 signal chains that were identical, other than the preamps. Same converters, same computer interface, same mics. On the mic side, I used Schoeps CMC6/Mk41s on the right side of each chain, Brauner VM1s on the left. Spaced pairs. So each recording has one Schoeps, and 1 Brauner. The one rub here, (and this is why testing and comparing, and knowing if what you're comparing is really what you think it is, is so hard and fraught with potential for false conclusions), is that the VM1s are big enough that one recording necessarily has a stereo image that's about an inch wider than the other. Fran suggested I could have used a splitter with the Brauners, to avoid this. Good idea, but I don't have one, and really, I just wanted a ballpark idea of whether or not the preamps in the Apogee were OK. If the difference doesn't leap out at me, I'm probably ok, I don't want to start resorting to null tests, etc, I just want to know "are the preamps good enough?"

So with those caveats, here's the 2 recordings. A casual poll among friends was split between those who had no preference and those who preferred the GR, but it was a small sample. Since we seem to have a lot of people here with very sophisticated ears and taste, I'd be curious both what you prefer, and what the differences are you hear. (Keep in mind, there *are* differences, just from the small difference in mic placement alone). You can download these tracks if you don't want the internet in the way (click the little arrow on the right hand side):

Preamp 1:


Preamp 2:


Oh, and by the way, for those who are wondering, I ended up keeping the GR, and that's the chain I'm using, for whatever reason....
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  #144  
Old 03-20-2015, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
I wonder if the pice' de resistance' might be a pair of Iso Acoustic speaker stands to replace the mini tiger house's. The have received rave reviews.
Yeah, but where would my little tiger live? :-) Do you know of iso's that will handle the weight of the barefoots? I don't know what they weigh, I only know I move them with great reluctance. I'd guess maybe 75lbs each?
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Fingerstyle Christmas Tunes: A DADGAD Christmas
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  #145  
Old 03-20-2015, 09:51 PM
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Well Doug, there's nothing sophisticated about my ears or taste. I liked Preamp 2. It seemed just a bit smoother and softer
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  #146  
Old 03-20-2015, 10:10 PM
flagstaffcharli flagstaffcharli is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Fran asked for someone to post a level-matched comparison of two preamps, and I happen to have such a thing. I recorded this when I was setting up the new Apogee thunderbolt-based system, and wondered how the built-in preamps compared to my trusty Great River. The GR runs $2000-2500ish, I forget, so around $1000 per channel. The Apogee is $3K for the entire box, 8 preamps, converters, etc, so maybe estimate $100-200 per channel for just the preamps? Just a wild guess.

The Apogee allows you to plug in a line input, completely bypassing its preamps, so I was able to record 2 signal chains that were identical, other than the preamps. Same converters, same computer interface, same mics. On the mic side, I used Schoeps CMC6/Mk41s on the right side of each chain, Brauner VM1s on the left. Spaced pairs. So each recording has one Schoeps, and 1 Brauner. The one rub here, (and this is why testing and comparing, and knowing if what you're comparing is really what you think it is, is so hard and fraught with potential for false conclusions), is that the VM1s are big enough that one recording necessarily has a stereo image that's about an inch wider than the other. Fran suggested I could have used a splitter with the Brauners, to avoid this. Good idea, but I don't have one, and really, I just wanted a ballpark idea of whether or not the preamps in the Apogee were OK. If the difference doesn't leap out at me, I'm probably ok, I don't want to start resorting to null tests, etc, I just want to know "are the preamps good enough?"

So with those caveats, here's the 2 recordings. A casual poll among friends was split between those who had no preference and those who preferred the GR, but it was a small sample. Since we seem to have a lot of people here with very sophisticated ears and taste, I'd be curious both what you prefer, and what the differences are you hear. (Keep in mind, there *are* differences, just from the small difference in mic placement alone). You can download these tracks if you don't want the internet in the way (click the little arrow on the right hand side):

Preamp 1:


Preamp 2:


Oh, and by the way, for those who are wondering, I ended up keeping the GR, and that's the chain I'm using, for whatever reason....
Please don't post answers too soon. I'm in Arizona and want to listen at home next Wednesday on my Adam A7 monitors. Always, I enjoy your recordings. Thanks!
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  #147  
Old 03-20-2015, 10:31 PM
H165 H165 is offline
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What's your studio/recording space like?

Bedroom 13 x 14. Carpet on floor. Random stuff on walls.

What are your goals for recording your acoustic music?

Clean, listenable recordings of the songs I've written.

What kind of music do you like to play/record?

Acoustic with an added pedal steel or reso, and a maybe viola played like a fiddle, with vocals. Bass, and percussion. Some MIDI.

Is your studio space treated?

Yes

How?

Portable panels

What's in your mic locker?

Eight condensers - three are small dia, the rest large. Ranging from the best low-budget mic ever (CAD GXL 2200) through a range of Audio Technica, AKG, and other odd stuff including an ancient Shure 33 ribbon.

Computer-based or standalone recorder?

Computer - an Apple Mac Pro with DP installed. Might be going to ProTools soon.

Interface? 828MkII

Preamp? Pendulum

FX? Plug-in's? Ext. HD's for storage? See above (DP)

Monitors? B & W

Headphones? Koss

Power amp? Mc2100

Controller/mixer or completely ITB? DP.

Cables? Balanced for everything I can.

Mic stands? Dual-mic mounts on booms.

Favorite mic pattern/placement for recording acoustic guitar? X axis close miced at fret 12 or so - angle plane headstock-to-bridge.

New gear you have your eye on?

ProTools. Why? Like it or not, it is the industry standard.

How has home recording evolved for you?

Sony stereo, Sony SOS, A-3440, Tascam DA-30MKII, Roland VS-1680, Garage Band, DP. Always liked and probably still prefer JBL 4311s or Altec 604E or even Rudy Bozak's stuff, but the B & Ws are good for a small room.
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  #148  
Old 03-21-2015, 08:31 AM
Redpick Redpick is offline
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Re Doug Young Soundcloud demos: to my ears the 2nd sample has slightly more sparkle.
You guys are way ahead of me in terms of technical know-how (and playing!), but I'm enjoying reading the posts immensely.
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  #149  
Old 03-21-2015, 10:57 AM
The Colonel The Colonel is offline
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Re Doug Young Soundcloud demos: to my ears the 2nd sample has slightly more sparkle.
You guys are way ahead of me in terms of technical know-how (and playing!), but I'm enjoying reading the posts immensely.

I second this: the second sample sounded slightly better to me.
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  #150  
Old 03-21-2015, 11:22 AM
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I can't say I know much about any of the stuff you guys have on and in your desks, other than I can recognize a microphone is a microphone....but it sure looks expensive....
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