Mahogany & Nylon

[Play2PraiseHim]

I know that mahogany is popular in steel string guitars but I rarely see it on the nicer grade nylon string guitars. When I do see it, it seems to be on student level or laminate construction. I would think that nice grade mahogany would pair well with a high grade cedar englemann top. Woulnt it make for a good famenco as well?

[WaddyT]

My suspicion would be that Mahogany in a steel string would be good because it kills a bit of the bright treble overtones and makes the guitar sound fuller. In a Classical this would be a terrible thing. Building classical guitars with strong treble response and sustain ( above the 7th fret) is a challenge, and it requires a back and side wood with good reflective properties as well as a good tight tap in the "bell" like range.

[Play2PraiseHim]

I see. Makes sense.

[Dogsnax]

Originally Posted by WaddyT

My suspicion would be that Mahogany in a steel string would be good because it kills a bit of the bright treble overtones and makes the guitar sound fuller. In a Classical this would be a terrible thing. Building classical guitars with strong treble response and sustain ( above the 7th fret) is a challenge, and it requires a back and side wood with good reflective properties as well as a good tight tap in the "bell" like range.

I totally agree with Waddy...there's a reason you don't see high-end classical guitars with mahogany back & sides. "Thud" is my best descriptor.

[Kindness]

Agreed. There are, however, some alternate woods that make sense for a classical guitar. Take my Claro Walnut. Dynamite choice paired with the Cedar top. The standard with classical guitars is Rosewood. As my luthier has had tremendous luck building classical and steel guitars with walnut, I took a chance, and it payed off beautifully. I would love to commission a steel string in walnut.

[HarleySpirit]

Originally Posted by Dogsnax

I totally agree with Waddy...there's a reason you don't see high-end classical guitars with mahogany back & sides. "Thud" is my best descriptor.

Hum bug!
Well, I don't agree with your description, but I guess the sayin "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" still holds true.
Check out the beautiful tone of this Walden "mahogany" nylon classical:
http://www.waldenguitars.com/N740.html
When I need a change from my favorite "brazilian" rosewood classical along with all its overtones and sustain, I reach for my second guit, my "mahogany" N740 and sit back and enjoy its clearity and "bell like" voice... and it didn't cost me an "arm 'n a leg" either!

[Jim Kirby]

Well, I agree with Waddy about a classical, but the question was whether it would make a good flamenco guitar. This is something I have wondered about, as the flamenco player seems to value the same sorts of characteristics in a guitar that a bluegrass player does - fast attack and fast decay favoring better note separation. Since this often leads bluegrass musicians to favor mahogany over rosewood in their guitars, it seems logical to me that there is potential in Mahogany being a good choice on the flamenco side as well.

I'm curious what you think on this point, 'cuz I've been pondering it quite a bit but haven't stepped up to the plate yet.

[dragonfly66]

Both of my classical guitars (not crossovers) that I've owned have been cedar/mahogany and I prefer the sound of the cedar/mahogany over the cedar/rosewood combo I've played. I also pondered the same question about the high-end guitars using rosewood back and sides and so it is good to understand why.

All of the flamenco guitars I've seen have had spruce tops with cypress/sycamore back and sides and only some with rosewood back and sides.

[joehempel]

Originally Posted by dragonfly66

Both of my classical guitars (not crossovers) that I've owned have been cedar/mahogany and I prefer the sound of the cedar/mahogany over the cedar/rosewood combo I've played. I also pondered the same question about the high-end guitars using rosewood back and sides and so it is good to understand why.

All of the flamenco guitars I've seen have had spruce tops with cypress/sycamore back and sides and only some with rosewood back and sides.

+1, I can't really hear a difference at all between Mahogany and Rosewood.

[Tommy]

There are many varieties of mahogany, some as soft as cedar (like for example some of the necks on lower-priced classical guitars), and some brilliantly-hard, almost glass-like. The mahogany that is generally selected for guitar backs and sides is really only one step down in hardness and reflectivity from the rosewoods they are using today, and at the rate that rosewood is disappearing it won't be long before it is just as good.
In general, rosewood is a lot more "brittle" (see how it splits so easily in response to climate, temperature and humidity changes!) and really is the best wood so far found for classical guitar backs.
Some varieties of African and Honduras mahogany approach it in reflectivity, and I would not eschew it for any guitar I chose provided the luthier was punctilious in his selection of very hard, very dense well-aged mahogany from the right forest. As time passes there is less and less really good rosewood, and this can be seen in the multicolored, wild grain of some of the newer rosewood guitars. Even ebony is changing. I now see ebony fret boards that have big streaks of light tan in them - something you'd never see 20 years ago when the ebony we got was as black as tar.
As far as Philippine "mahogany" is concerned, it's too bad that it got the moniker of 'mahogany' at all, for it is more of a cedar, and has given true mahoganys a bad rap by unwarranted association.
Cherubini/

[fitness1]

As with anything, it depends greatly on the builder as well as the specific piece of wood. I can think of some nylon builders who I'd love to see do a Mahogany and Cedar or Engelmann guitar, and others who I probably would rather stick to something else.

[Turp]

My take on traditional nylon strung guitars has been challenged lately as I research various models. I had developed the opinion that most had cedar tops and rosewood or mahogany backs and sides. Then as I looked, I found spruce tops are very popular and some models use spanish cedar, maple or cypress on the back and sides. I would think that with the sharp note decay, maple would be out. I believe, my view of cedar tops came from the observation of orange color tones I saw in various classicals.

Regardless, I believe I have read that mahogany has been in use for some time among various builders. I believe well executed it would be balanced, exceptionally focused without excessive overtones, individual not clarity/definition, and project very well. That is the way it comes off on steel string, due to the short grain as compared to longer grained woods such as rosewood and walnut.

AN example of a vintage mahogany:
http://vintageclassicalguitar.com/vi...-mahogany/1031

[Garthman]

Hmmmmmm. The old question of tonewoods, huh? Perhaps I'm something of an heretic but I think that as a breed we guitar players worry far too much about them and atribute far more properties to them than they deserve. I very strongly suspect that the reason that spruce and cedar are the woods most often used for a guitar top are (a) they are easy woods to work (especially, from an historic perspective, with fairly primitive tools) and (b) they possess the highest thickness to strength ratio of readily available woods.

After that, whatever wood is used for the rest of the guitar (apart from the fretboard where you want something tough - like rosewood or ebony - to resist wear) is largely cosmetic - although it's handy if whatever wood used is also easily worked.

The famous luthier Antonio de Torres Jurado demonstrated that the top of the guitar generates most of the sound (modern thinking is around 85 - 90%) when, in 1862, he built a guitar with papier mache back and sides.

So - just buy whatever guitar sounds best to you - problem solved.

[kirkham13]

yes, its a wonder those paper mache guitars aren't flying off the shelves..

[Garthman]

Originally Posted by kirkham13

yes, its a wonder those paper mache guitars aren't flying off the shelves..

LOL. There's one in a museum in Barcelona that's worth a fortune