12 String Blues: Neck Resets, Bellied Tops, and Bridge Issues

timacn · #1 02-12-2021, 12:42 AM

I've read that all acoustic guitars, especially 12 strings, need a neck reset at some point. Many also have problems with the top below the bridge bellying and issues with the bridge itself. I guess it's all related to the stress of 12 metal guitar strings pulling hard on the wood. Something's gotta give.

I am really looking hard trying to find a good used Guild 12 string, a JF 30 12 or a 412 or 512. It's very hard to find one for sale, particularly with covid, so one has to pretty much go online to locate one and that usually means buying it without seeing or playing it in real time.

My question is this: What is your guesstimate of the percentage of 10-30 year old Guild 12 string instruments that would typically need these flaws (neck resets and bellying) addressed?

Also: from my reading it seems like a neck reset, though expensive, usually has good results, but top bellying and related bridge problems seem much harder to correct. Sometimes almost impossible to correct. (not sure if that's true as I'm not even close to being a luthier or guitar repair person)

Maybe it would just be a better idea to buy new rather than used, particularly with a 12 string.

Thanks for your insights and advice.

Silly Moustache · #2 02-12-2021, 04:12 AM

Hi, I've seen brand new Martin 6 strings that needed a reset out of the box, and I've seen fifty/sixty year old 12 strings tat are fine.

I dolt have any first hand knowledge of Guild 12 strings as I play a 64 Martin D12-20 and a late '60s Harmony H1270.

Both have had work done.

By ALL MEANS - ask other guild 12 string owners their experience, but frankly I think you might possibly be overthinking this.

If you have some local techs/luthiers why not phone/ring them and ask them their experiences.

Also ask them the cost of a reset.

I've never experienced a top issue so I can't comment.

donlyn · #3 02-12-2021, 07:51 AM

12 String Blues: Neck Resets, Bellied Tops, and Bridge Issues

I've owned 12 strings since the 60s. Learned a long time ago to tune them down. Used to be from 'E' to 'D'. With the newer 12 string guitars nowadays, it's from 'E' to 'D#'.

Something about an ounce of prevention . . .

I will admit, it may be mostly just a habit, but see last (unfinished) sentence.

I also use a G7th Newport 12 string capo with the compensated string pad to capo '1' and bring the pitch back up to 'standard', or 'E', if needed. There is no need to re-tune your guitar when using this capo, either putting on or taking off.

Don
.

rmoretti49 · #4 02-12-2021, 08:14 AM

My guild D212 is just about 30 years old now. From the beginning I kept it in standard tuning. After several years the bridge started to pull up along with the belly of the guitar. There were some indications that the neck had also started to move. I had the bridge reglued, and from that time forward I began tuning down, often using low tension strings. It has been perfect ever since.

There are a few manufacturers of low tension strings for 12 string guitars, most notably Newtone Heritage. They sound very good, and I don't understand why more players don't use them.

drive-south · #5 02-12-2021, 08:16 AM

I own 5 Guild acoustic, all from Westerly RI. All but 1 were made in 1990/1991. I've never had a loose bridge or bellied top on any of my Guild guitars. I do have 1 D30 from 1991 that would benefit from a neck set but it still plays ok. 2 of my Guilds are 12 strings including a D25-12 and JF30-12. 12 string Guilds from Westerly have big necks with double truss rods. Fender redesigbed the 12s after moving production. If you can find a 12 from Tacoma or New Hartford those would have slimmer necks with single truss rod.

rmp · #6 02-12-2021, 08:22 AM

can't speak for an older one, I would be concerned about a whole lot of things if buying "vintage" or simmilar

incidentally I have one of the Westerly Collection 12s (1512F). Dual truss rod, and a pretty thick top. The guitar is a total canon

H165 · #7 02-12-2021, 09:03 AM

Quote:

What is your guesstimate of the percentage of 10-30 year old Guild 12 string instruments that would typically need these flaws (neck resets and bellying) addressed?

About 40%. I'd also say this is about the percentage that would apply to 10-30 year old Taylors, Martins, Yamahas, and any other major manufacturer.

I've been playing Guild 12s since 1965. I've owned about 20, and worked on too many to count. I've also owned and worked on Yamahas; my choice as "campfire" or "backup" 12 strings.

The pre-1975 Guild F-312s, F-412s, and F-512s might get closer to 80%, but they are my preference after all these years, and well worth the work to get them put right.

112s and 612s are each in a league of their own. I'd put 112s at 99%, and with 612s, I don't have enough data to comment.

FWIW, I don't worry much about bellying. If the top is flat after 10-30 years, the guitar is either overbuilt (and lots of Guilds are) or has seldom been strung to full tension. Excessive bellying is most often caused by loose or broken braces; relatively easy to fix.

EllenGtrGrl · #8 02-12-2021, 09:25 AM

Your concerns are valid - especially for older 12-string guitars. I can vouch for that from first hand experience. About 8 or 9 years ago, I bought a late 70s Guild G-212 at the Chicago Guitar Show. It was one of the better condition ones for sale at the show, and I figured it would serve me well in the following years. While the neck was nice and straight (it had 2 truss rods), I began to notice other issues within a year's time:

1. The bridge was lifting
2. The neck was starting to pull up from the body (hello neck reset!)
3. The top was bellying

At the time (about 2013 or 2014), I didn't have the money to take care of the issues, so I ended up having to sell it for considerably less than I paid for at the guitar show.

All of the above issues are possible for any guitar of the vintage of my old Guild, but I do think that they were also caused or exacerbated by the previous owners probably keeping it tuned to Standard tuning for decades. You'd be surprised how many 12-string players insist upon tuning to Standard pitch. Me? No way! That old Guild drove home the need to tune down, and I've tuned my 12-strings down one step from Standard ever since then. I also use light gauge strings.

My current 12-string (a Taylor 150e), which is my church band guitar, is going to have to go bye-bye after 2 years of use, due to its neck being too thin comfort-wise. Just like 6-strings, it's a hassle to find a 12-string with a chunky neck. The only ones that seem to be out there are vintage Guilds like my old G-212, US made Guilds, Eastmans, or (as I found out recently) Yamahas (with semi-chunky necks). I don't want to deal with the cost of repairs that a vintage Guild will more than likely need. Eastmans only come with Jumbo bodies (I'm not that wild about Jumbos). So, I've chosen a Yamaha LL16-12 AED. Like my current Taylor, it will be tuned down, and will get light gauge strings.

Glennwillow · #9 02-12-2021, 09:31 AM

I have a 1972 Guild F-212 that has always been tuned to concert pitch using light gauge 12-string sets (high E = 0.010" dia.) and it has never had a neck reset. It's close to needing it, but not quite there yet. So older guitars do not necessarily need neck resets, but the percentage needing a reset is going to be higher. Tuning to concert pitch does not necessarily increase the chance of needing a neck reset, either, as long as the correct gauge strings are used. The tension on the neck is related to both the string tension and the gauge.

However, being aware of this problem, when I looked for a used Guild F-512, I looked for a more recent build so that I didn't have to worry about the neck reset issue. I found a used version from 2014.

I have never seen belly issues on Guild 12-strings, but as H165 noted, that usually occurs because of a loose or broken top brace.

Regarding the need for a neck reset, you can usually get a good idea about this from pictures of the guitar action from the side up near the 12-fret and based on what the saddle looks like in the bridge.

I've noticed that a lot of older Guild 12-strings offered for sale have had a recent neck reset and because of this, the price is usually higher. Older F-212 models with no neck reset usually sell for $800-1000 and after a neck reset generally sell for about $1800-2000. A neck reset with fret work usually costs about $1000.

- Glenn

brad4d8 · #10 02-12-2021, 09:46 AM

Like Glenn, I've got an older F212 ('64, had it all it's life). No bellying problem, had a neck reset at the Guild New Hartford shop 5 or 6 years ago. Always kept at concert pitch, usually with 11s ot 12s.

zombywoof · #11 02-12-2021, 10:12 AM

Hard to believe now that during the 1950s the only U.S. company offering a stock 12 string guitar was Harmony. And they did come with the warning to tune down a step.

Over the past 20 or so years, I have owned a pre-War Regal jumbo 12 string, an early-1970s Guild F112, and 1961 and 1963 Gibson B45-12s. I still have the slope shoulder '61 Gibson which is pretty a much a J-45 with a wide neck and humongous headstock. The Regal had a massive three piece neck but no reinforcement, a pin bridge and shades of Norlin Gibson was double X braced. Both the Gibsons had tailpiece/floating bridge setups. But they were also braced no differently than their six string counterparts. Great for sound but not the best thing for survival. So yeah, tuning down had been a way of life for me.

If I was going to buy a new 12 string today hands down it would be a Fraulini. But for me while there is a certain itch only a 12 string can scratch I just do not play one enough to put me in a place where I can rationalize the expense. I am, however, about to drop off one of my Harmony Sovereigns at the repair shop and have them give it the Spider John Koerner treatment of adding an octave G string.

EllenGtrGrl · #12 02-12-2021, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zombywoof

Hard to believe now that during the 1950s the only U.S. company offering a stock 12 string guitar was Harmony. And they did come with the warning to tune down a step.

Over the past 20 or so years, I have owned a pre-War Regal jumbo 12 string, an early-1970s Guild F112, and 1961 and 1963 Gibson B45-12s. I still have the slope shoulder '61 Gibson which is pretty a much a J-45 with a wide neck and humongous headstock. The Regal had a massive three piece neck but no reinforcement, a pin bridge and shades of Norlin Gibson was double X braced. Both the Gibsons had tailpiece/floating bridge setups. But they were also braced no differently than their six string counterparts. Great for sound but not the best thing for survival. So yeah, tuning down had been a way of life for me.

If I was going to buy a new 12 string today hands down it would be a Fraulini. But for me while there is a certain itch only a 12 string can scratch I just do not play one enough to put me in a place where I can rationalize the expense. I am, however, about to drop off one of my Harmony Sovereigns at the repair shop and have them give it the Spider John Koerner treatment of adding an octave G string.

Fraulinis are seriously cool (especially the 12-string Stella recreations), and since Todd Cambio's shop is in Madison, and I'm in the Milwaukee area (which is only a 75 mile drive from where I live), I wouldn't even have to have it shipped to me! I'd love to have one, but they're out of my range price-wise.

zombywoof · #13 02-12-2021, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EllenGtrGrl

Fraulinis are seriously cool (especially the 12-string Stella recreations), and since Todd Cambio's shop is in Madison, and I'm in the Milwaukee area (which is only a 75 mile drive from where I live), I wouldn't even have to have it shipped to me! I'd love to have one, but they're out of my range price-wise.

Todd managed to get Alvin Youngblood Hart to put down his Regal 12 string. No mean feat.