Brazilian Rosewood

[Robin, Wales]

I wonder if rosewood and mahogany had not been coming into the US literally by the boatload during the 1930s we would all be coveting maple guitars with maple necks and spruce tops? In some respects, maple does seem to be the "lost" wood from Martin's back catalogue yet it seem like an incredibly practical timber for guitar making.

[gmel555]

Originally Posted by Simon Fay

...........I think you would also find that the majority of luthiers don't believe that there is a single "best" tonewood. Mahogany is also a phenomenal tonewood -- so is Ziricote, Malaysian Blackwood, Tiger Myrtle, Cocobolo, Amazon/Honduran/Madagascar RW, etc ...

I'm a player not a luthier and have also evolved to this thinking over many years. I've learned first hand that Brazilian back and sides is not a guarantee of excellence even from "top" luthiers.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

I wonder if rosewood and mahogany had not been coming into the US literally by the boatload during the 1930s we would all be coveting maple guitars with maple necks and spruce tops?

Or cherry, birch, walnut, oak, ash, hickory, elm...

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

I wonder if rosewood and mahogany had not been coming into the US literally by the boatload during the 1930s we would all be coveting maple guitars with maple necks and spruce tops? In some respects, maple does seem to be the "lost" wood from Martin's back catalogue yet it seem like an incredibly practical timber for guitar making.

actually, robin, the amuont of BRW used, even in the '30s-'50s by the music industray paled to insignificance compared to the furniture industry in the Americas, Europe and the far east.

Martin quietly changed from BRW to EIR (East Indian rosewood) in the late '60s du to the Brazilian government's ruling that any BRW had to be cut and sectioned in Brazil, primarily for the furniture trade quarter sawn virtually impractical for large production companies like Martin et al.

I'm not sure, but I think that the Rosewood heavy areas were de forested to create grazing land for low quality beef for North Americas hunger for burgers.

The East Indian rosewood obtained by Martin and others initially was really as cosmetically beautiful as BRW, but tonally a little less "glassy".

AFAIK EIR is not endangered as it was planted and used for shade tees for Tea plantations.

Madagascar rosewood (Madrose) has relatively recently been discovered as it is (or can be) highly figured like BRW.
However, due to the extremely high prices of "pretty" rosewoods the harvesting was irresponsibly plundered by poor regulations and dubious interests after a quick profit.

I know a British luthier, (well known in the classical world who once showed me his store of "madrose" then said that he found out how it had been harvested and shipped.
Apparently, gangsterism and local deaths were involved and in conscience he decided that he wouldn't ever use it.

As he doesn't mention it on his website, I guess it is still sitting in his wood store.

I have four rosewood guitars - all are EIR and I'm happy with that.

[Andyrondack]

I have never played a guitar made with Brazilian Rosewood and probably never will, but I've seen Clive Carol and John Renbourn playing their BR spruce OMs and I think it really imparts an extra ressonance to a guitar that usually only comes with age.
The problem for Brazilian Rosewood trees came about because it's pretty and so in high demand around the world as great looking veneer for furniture makers especialy in China , I once rented a room that had a wardrobe with extraordinary figuring in the wood, looked like there was a three foot high rabit looking back at me from the door of this thing, now I realise that it was probably covered in a BR veneer, this demand and that it grows in a part of the world where protection of natural resources is not popular with the current generation of timber entrepreneurs means it will become extinct in the wild without an international moratorium on using it. Harvesting wild trees means driving roads into previously virgin forests to get the big trees out . Plantations are being created for local communities so one day there should be a sustainable source of this wood that they can harvest for income.

[Wade Hampton]

My experience with Brazilian rosewood is like what I’ve seen with Adirondack spruce tops: on some guitars they seem to make a positive difference, on others there’s no discernible difference between them and other species of rosewood and spruce.

When Brazilian rosewood is good, it’s great, and almost deserves its exaggerated reputation. When it’s not great it’s just ho hum, nothing special.

I would say that more than half of the Brazilian rosewood guitars I’ve played fall into this “nothing special” category, and that includes the old ones that are supposedly all Holy Grail instruments. They’re fine, and professional quality guitars, but they’re not dazzlingly great.

It’s always been that way, from what I can tell - Brazilian rosewood is much more hit or miss than the people selling high dollar Brazilian rosewood guitars will generally admit to.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

[iim7V7IM7]

Posts here on AGF relating to Brazilian Rosewood tend to run their course from the original question to a debate on cost/benefit, comparisons to other tonewoods and overarching ethical considerations. I will try to answer the OP's question.

As others have said, it was historically the premium wood of choice among factories and luthiers due to its beauty and physical/acoustic properties. It initially was "policed" (your word) 50+ years ago by the Brazilian government trying to eliminate the export of raw logs but allowed the export of domestically processed wood to be exported. This policy greatly increased the cost to factory manufacturers. About 30 years ago CITES classified it as an Appendix I (endangered) species making general export impossible. This further reduced availability of processed wood for guitars. Much of the wood exported post this change was either previously exported and available in limited stockpiles or some was harvested from architectural beams and stumps of previously cut trees and exported under special permit.

Guitarists tend to be traditionalists and avoid non-traditional tonewood options. Brazilian Rosewood was the low damping glassy wood of choice in premium instruments for decades. Some consumers also tend to want what they cannot have and put less value on what is widely available. Others just like the way it can sound when handled by someone skilled in the art.

East Indian Rosewood is CITES Appendix II (threatened) became the ubiquitous substitute of choice 50+ years ago. There is plenty of supply of this wood. Is it a good substitute? In many respects it is.

- It is a beautiful tonewood
- Somewhat sustainable (much is grown on tea plantations)
- Well quartersawn sets are available with good stability for a rosewood
- Similar in density to Brazilian Rosewood

It does tend to differ (on average) from BRW is in its generally lower stiffness, hardness and somewhat higher damping of sound compared to Brazilian Rosewood. I find it generally to be less clear sounding, more forgiving to player mistakes, a bit muddier in the bass with a different shimmer to the overtones. This does not make it better to all, just different.

Originally Posted by FoxHound4690

Just wondering what exactly is the deal with this type of wood and why is it so heavily policed?

It seems to be the holy grail of tone woods. You can't get a guitar that's made with it anymore or its very hard to... was it just over foresting that caused such heavy regulations to come into place?

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Or cherry, birch, walnut, oak, ash, hickory, elm...

Good point. Godin have been using the wood around them for decades. I've had 3 guitars with their cherry/maple/cherry 3 layer plywood back and sides - and that's what I'm playing at present. Sure sounds like a guitar to me!

[mercy]

Compare a cherry dreadnaught and a D28 to resolve this issue.

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by mercy

Compare a cherry dreadnaught and a D28 to resolve this issue.

Cherry sits between genuine mahogany and African mahogany. You'd want something like Osage Orange for a N American native wood blind test against Brazilian Rosewood back and sides. Although D-28 guitars are not made from Brazilian Rosewood and haven't been for some years. So you'll have to pick another guitar for your test.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by mercy

Compare a cherry dreadnaught and a D28 to resolve this issue.

What is the purpose of your test? What about them, specifically, are you comparing?

Are you comparing ANY dreadnaught with a D28? Or two "identical" D28's, differing only in their choice of wood for backs and sides?

Are you going to compare them without knowing which is which (i.e. "blind")?

If you took 10 "identical" guitars, but for 5 made of cherry and 5 of you chosen wood, if a number of people listened to them without seeing them, simply guessing which is which would, on average, yield 50-50 results. For the test to be "meaningful", there would have to be more than 50-50 preferring one over the other. Then there is the question if, having preferred one over the other, the listener could correctly determine which of the two types of wood is used with greater accuracy than the 50-50 guess.

It isn't easy to setup a "meaningful" test. Setting up "non-meaningful" tests is very easy.

[terken]

I love it for bridges.

[bendandsnap]

I like the collectibility aspect of brazilian rosewood instruments. As prices increase, the BRW you already own goes up in value.

[s2y]

Originally Posted by bendandsnap

I like the collectibility aspect of brazilian rosewood instruments. As prices increase, the BRW you already own goes up in value.

I don't. I'd just assume save the money. It will inevitably get harder to replace guitars in the event they could be stolen or damaged.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by bendandsnap

I like the collectibility aspect of brazilian rosewood instruments. As prices increase, the BRW you already own goes up in value.

My crystal ball and Spidey sense tells me that as the baby boomers die off, there will be a HUGE glut on the market of used guitars. A lot of people have "stables" of guitars - many guitars. As they die-off and or down-size, there will be a flooded market. Prices will go down when/if that happens. When/if that happens, a few of the better Brazilian rosewood guitars will be highly collectable, but I suspect that the many "average" Brazilian rosewood guitars will not be in high demand: prices will go down for those. If you bought Brazilian rosewood guitars as an investment, I'd suggest selling them soon.