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  #46  
Old 06-23-2021, 12:05 PM
rmp rmp is offline
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Originally Posted by scotchnspeed View Post
I just don't understand why we (rightfully) get so upset about Chinese counterfeits, but fail to express any concern about otherwise legitimately made guitars from China that are made with pitifully low wages and poor conditions. That bothers me at least as much, and is why I avoid the temptation to have several more inexpensive but good sounding guitars - I do not want to support that reality or mindset.
I avoid MIC products when ever I can just for this reason, not just gear and guitars either.
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  #47  
Old 06-23-2021, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by island texan View Post
A few years ago Fender lost a suit based upon the unauthorized use of their designs for the Stratocaster and Telecaster. I've always thought it a shame than anybody can put together their own version of these two iconic designs by Leo Fender and not have to pay Fender any royalty. The court ruling was not that the patent had run out but rather that the two designs were simply 'standard' shapes for guitars. Likewise you see a number of boutique acoustic brands that openly say their guitars are copied from the Gibson and Martin designs. So these are not counterfeits, of course. Yet it seems less than fair that guitar makers can so overtly copy established designs and by putting their brand on the headstock and not even claiming they're homage, be exempt for legal repercussions.
On the other hand, should builders have to reinvent the wheel whenever they design a guitar? Don't get me wrong, I'm against anyone building a guitar and using the decal and label from a brand name, but still believe that shapes should be fair game...
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  #48  
Old 06-23-2021, 12:09 PM
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On the other hand, should builders have to reinvent the wheel whenever they design a certain model? Do get me wrong, I'm against anyone building a guitar and using the decal and label from a brand name.
no, I don't think they should..

but I think they share some responsibility in trying to curtail the flow of copies of their patents, I'm not so sure they do enough, if anything at all about it..
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  #49  
Old 06-23-2021, 12:42 PM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is online now
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Originally Posted by 619TF View Post
Whether or not the friends activity is illegal in your mind is irrelevant. It's not illegal to purchase these, only to sell them. Not "stolen property" but intellectual property with completely different rules.

My "reasoning" is basically how it works under the law. Of course Martin sees this differently than I do. They're also charging lots of money for their products and I could only expect them to want to protect their legal rights as well as reputation for a certain level of quality. Even less surprising is that folks who can't afford the real deal might buy one of these fakes.
It may be a good idea to reevaluate your knowledge.

Here's the real facts on the legality of purchasing counterfeit goods courtesy of the U.S. Customs and Border Protection agency:

https://www.cbp.gov/FakeGoodsRealDan...20and%20drugs.

Here's a copy / paste from the linked website information:

"Legal Implications - It is illegal to purchase counterfeit goods. Bringing them into the United States may result in civil or criminal penalties. Purchasing counterfeit goods supports criminal activities such as money laundering and trafficking in illegal guns and drugs. Remember, if it seems like a steal, it is."
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  #50  
Old 06-23-2021, 01:17 PM
Cecil6243 Cecil6243 is offline
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Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
It may be a good idea to reevaluate your knowledge.

Here's the real facts on the legality of purchasing counterfeit goods courtesy of the U.S. Customs and Border Protection agency:

https://www.cbp.gov/FakeGoodsRealDan...20and%20drugs.

Here's a copy / paste from the linked website information:

"Legal Implications - It is illegal to purchase counterfeit goods. Bringing them into the United States may result in civil or criminal penalties. Purchasing counterfeit goods supports criminal activities such as money laundering and trafficking in illegal guns and drugs. Remember, if it seems like a steal, it is."
Amen to that.
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  #51  
Old 06-23-2021, 01:44 PM
Street Glider Street Glider is offline
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Originally Posted by Peacemaker View Post
You don't have to worry about that, if you have even the slightest experience with guitars you can immediately tell a knock-off from the real deal.
Not necessarily.

While that may have been the case 20 years ago, knock offs are now pretty impressive and can actually be quite difficult to spot unless you really know what you're looking for. I would submit that someone with even the slightest experience with guitars would not have that level of knowledge...
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  #52  
Old 06-23-2021, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by rmp View Post
I've messaged the seller, notifying them that it's clearly counterfeit, listed as USA made.
I recently notified Martin about a fake being sold locally on Craigslist.
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  #53  
Old 06-23-2021, 05:14 PM
Tannin Tannin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scotchnspeed View Post
I just don't understand why we (rightfully) get so upset about Chinese counterfeits, but fail to express any concern about otherwise legitimately made guitars from China that are made with pitifully low wages and poor conditions. That bothers me at least as much, and is why I avoid the temptation to have several more inexpensive but good sounding guitars - I do not want to support that reality or mindset.
Wages and conditions is a vexed question. Is it better to avoid buying a product made by ill-paid workers in dangerous conditions so as not to support that? Or is it better to buy it because then at least those workers have some sort of job, probably better paid than other jobs in the same country? I don't know the answer to these questions.

One question I *do* know the answer to, however, is whether it is better to buy from a responsible, decent company using verifiable legal timbers, or from a company in a country that uses huge amounts of pirate timber from illegal, unsustainable logging, at vast cost to the enviroinment? According to Interpol, as much as 30% of the world'd logging is illegal. China is by far the world's biggest importer of illegal timber. Indonesia also has an appalling record of illegal clearfelling.

So let's think this through again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotchnspeed View Post
I just don't understand why we (rightfully) get so upset about Chinese counterfeits, but fail to express any concern about otherwise legitimately made guitars from China
How can you have "legitimately made" guitars when we have no way of knowing that the timbers were responsibly harvested, and every reason to suspect that they were not? One day a Chinese or Indonesian guitar maker will step up and show proof (real evidence, not just a touchy-feely PR blurb on their website) that 100% of their timber is responsibly harvested. When that day comes, I'll consider buying their product. (But we should also be aware that not all Western manufacturers are squeaky clean - one or two big names have been caught, while several others work very hard to do the right thing. Note that several big "Western" brands buy cheap stuff in from China and Indonesia and badge it as their own.)

As for the fakery, there are two sorts. (1) Fakes designed to fool buyers and sell for close to full price. These are bad every way you look at it. And (b) fakes not really designed to fool anyone. These are less harmful. I remember owning a fake watch many years ago. It cost $15 and was styled to look very like a very expensive brand. (Can't remember which one, but one of those famous European names.) I used to wear it on nights out because it looked nice. No-one was fooled by it - a Cartier or Christen Dior watch om my wrist? Not likely! - and the big name - let's say it was Dior - missed out on nothing, because the chance of me spending $10,000 for a watch is exactly zero. (Crikey, I wouldn't spend $100 on a watch! I keep my money for important stuff like camera lenses and guitars.) But it was technically illegal just the same.
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  #54  
Old 06-23-2021, 08:18 PM
Cecil6243 Cecil6243 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tannin View Post
Wages and conditions is a vexed question. Is it better to avoid buying a product made by ill-paid workers in dangerous conditions so as not to support that? Or is it better to buy it because then at least those workers have some sort of job, probably better paid than other jobs in the same country? I don't know the answer to these questions.

One question I *do* know the answer to, however, is whether it is better to buy from a responsible, decent company using verifiable legal timbers, or from a company in a country that uses huge amounts of pirate timber from illegal, unsustainable logging, at vast cost to the enviroinment? According to Interpol, as much as 30% of the world'd logging is illegal. China is by far the world's biggest importer of illegal timber. Indonesia also has an appalling record of illegal clearfelling.

So let's think this through again:



How can you have "legitimately made" guitars when we have no way of knowing that the timbers were responsibly harvested, and every reason to suspect that they were not? One day a Chinese or Indonesian guitar maker will step up and show proof (real evidence, not just a touchy-feely PR blurb on their website) that 100% of their timber is responsibly harvested. When that day comes, I'll consider buying their product. (But we should also be aware that not all Western manufacturers are squeaky clean - one or two big names have been caught, while several others work very hard to do the right thing. Note that several big "Western" brands buy cheap stuff in from China and Indonesia and badge it as their own.)

As for the fakery, there are two sorts. (1) Fakes designed to fool buyers and sell for close to full price. These are bad every way you look at it. And (b) fakes not really designed to fool anyone. These are less harmful. I remember owning a fake watch many years ago. It cost $15 and was styled to look very like a very expensive brand. (Can't remember which one, but one of those famous European names.) I used to wear it on nights out because it looked nice. No-one was fooled by it - a Cartier or Christen Dior watch om my wrist? Not likely! - and the big name - let's say it was Dior - missed out on nothing, because the chance of me spending $10,000 for a watch is exactly zero. (Crikey, I wouldn't spend $100 on a watch! I keep my money for important stuff like camera lenses and guitars.) But it was technically illegal just the same.
Excellent post!
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  #55  
Old 06-23-2021, 08:24 PM
phcorrigan phcorrigan is offline
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Originally Posted by Tannin View Post
I remember owning a fake watch many years ago. It cost $15 and was styled to look very like a very expensive brand.
Not too many years ago you could buy fake designer watches on NY street corners for $5.00. Of course, the "gold" would turn green in a few months...
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  #56  
Old 06-23-2021, 08:26 PM
Cecil6243 Cecil6243 is offline
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On a funny note I was in Spain once and as is typical of Spain in the summer it was hot as blazes complete with bright sun and no clouds. I needed a pair of sun glasses badly as the bright sun was hurting my eyes. Anyway there were these sidewalk vendors that would hit on the tourists with knock off items. I got a pair of sunglasses that I knew were knock offs but my eyes felt better. And the price was low.

The funny part was the designer name easily rubbed off, and when I looked down even the slightest unevenness into the cobblestones it looked like I was walking into a massive hole!
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Last edited by Cecil6243; 10-31-2021 at 08:46 AM.
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  #57  
Old 06-23-2021, 10:31 PM
619TF 619TF is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
It may be a good idea to reevaluate your knowledge.

Here's the real facts on the legality of purchasing counterfeit goods courtesy of the U.S. Customs and Border Protection agency:

https://www.cbp.gov/FakeGoodsRealDan...20and%20drugs.

Here's a copy / paste from the linked website information:

"Legal Implications - It is illegal to purchase counterfeit goods. Bringing them into the United States may result in civil or criminal penalties. Purchasing counterfeit goods supports criminal activities such as money laundering and trafficking in illegal guns and drugs. Remember, if it seems like a steal, it is."
That's not "real facts" but rather scare tactics from the folks empowered to enforce the law. The TRAFFICKING in counterfeit goods laws which criminalize sale and import for sale. I dare you to provide evidence of a single prosecution for mere purchase of such an item. How about providing any actual federal law to back up the claim? You likely won't find much more than the bluster you've quoted above.
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  #58  
Old 06-25-2021, 08:37 AM
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Patent and trademark protections that were later overturned is an old story. An inventor named George B. Seldon once held a patent covering all motor vehicles. The manufacturers of early automobiles had to pay him a royalty on every car they made. But Henry Ford refused to pay the royalties, was sued for patent infringement, and won, thus killing the patent and making the automobile a generic design in the public domain. Did this case influence the history of guitar shapes? Well, probably not.
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  #59  
Old 06-25-2021, 08:49 AM
TheGITM TheGITM is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 619TF View Post
That's not "real facts" but rather scare tactics from the folks empowered to enforce the law. The TRAFFICKING in counterfeit goods laws which criminalize sale and import for sale. I dare you to provide evidence of a single prosecution for mere purchase of such an item. How about providing any actual federal law to back up the claim? You likely won't find much more than the bluster you've quoted above.
Agreed. Buying a counterfeit product for personal use is not a prosecutable offence. Buying counterfeit product with the intent to distribute would be prosecutable. So, if you were to buy a fake something, and then turn around try to sell the fake something... then you would be committing a crime.
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  #60  
Old 06-25-2021, 09:59 AM
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According to findlaw.com, "In the U.S., federal law protecting trademarks makes it illegal to knowingly traffic counterfeit goods, which includes the production, sale and transport of such goods. The U.S. Department of Justice, however, has stated that federal law doesn’t prohibit an individual from buying a counterfeit product for personal use, even if they do so knowingly."
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