Apprentice Prices

[no1i]

Been looking at guitar a lot lately and noticed the following:
Olson and Somogyi guitars have similar price ranges but their apprentice prices differ a lot

Majority of apprentices under Somogyi are still price at a similar range to their teacher (e.g: Matsuda)

Whereas apprentices under Olson have a lower price and atleast a bit more affordable (e.g: Applegate)

Not saying that this is due to their quality of work, they're all great luthiers but wondering what really causes this difference in price in comparison to Somogyi's apprentices?

[ChuckS]

I don't think those who worked for, or gained knowledge from Olson, (i.e. such as the case for Brian Applegate) went through a 'traditional' type of apprenticeship.

[justonwo]

Guitar pricing is a complex soup of factors, and one could probably write a book on why there are differences between Olson and Somogyi apprentices. In general, I think Ervin and his apprentices have done a good job pushing the boundaries of guitars as functional art, with shapes, ornate inlays, and design concepts that are much more cutting edge than most other builders.

The Somogyinistas are also generally very adept at marketing, branding, and having an active presence in the guitar community (guitar shows, forums, shops).

There are some inherent aspects of Somogyi-style guitars that drive up the price: builders like Michi, Leo, and others often include ornate carvings and aesthetic designs that are extremely time-consuming, whereas you don’t typically see these features on Olson derivatives. And, of course, a large part of the price is perception, demand, and the perception/reality of real quality.

There is no single factor, I suppose, and one should be careful not to lump all of the apprentices into one category as they are quite varied.

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by justonwo

Guitar pricing is a complex soup of factors, and one could probably write a book on why there are differences between Olson and Somogyi apprentices. In general, I think Ervin and his apprentices have done a good job pushing the boundaries of guitars as functional art, with shapes, ornate inlays, and design concepts that are much more cutting edge than most other builders.

The Somogyinistas are also generally very adept at marketing, branding, and having an active presence in the guitar community (guitar shows, forums, shops).

There are some inherent aspects of Somogyi-style guitars that drive up the price: builders like Michi, Leo, and others often include ornate carvings and aesthetic designs that are extremely time-consuming, whereas you don’t typically see these features on Olson derivatives. And, of course, a large part of the price is perception, demand, and the perception/reality of real quality.

There is no single factor, I suppose, and one should be careful not to lump all of the apprentices into one category as they are quite varied.

As well as the fact that some of those, like Matsuda, are fully established in their own right. Calling him an "apprentice" is a bit strange, given how long he's been on his own.

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by stringjunky

As well as the fact that some of those, like Matsuda, are fully established in their own right. Calling him an "apprentice" is a bit strange, given how long he's been on his own.

Well, they’re all established in their own right for the most part. I’m not calling them apprentices in the present tense.

[iim7V7IM7]

As others have pointed out, Ervin Somogyi has had at least 22 apprentices that I know of in his shop over the last 40-years with a steady stream of them coming straight from Roberto Venn over the last two + decades.

Jim Olson has mostly been his own solo “ one-man factory” over that same period of time. He has been generous in opening his shop and work practices to others who make derivative SJ inspired instruments (e.g. Applegate, Wise etc.). I believe Heinonen actually spent some time helping Jim in his shop.

Ervin’s base price is $40,000 (options can raise this significantly) and Jim’s is $15,000 while most instrument coming off his bench with options cost significantly more. So while there are many Olsons made in the $30,000+ range, Jim’s guitars base price less than 40% of Ervin’s.

I believe that ex-apprentices and luthiers who make derivative guitars scale their base pricing against the brand equity of the “master” they emulate what the free market will bear based on supply and demand. After some time in the market; their own respective reputations and the perceived value of their work tends to amplify or subtract from this reference pricing.

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

As others have pointed out, Ervin Somogyi has had at least 22 apprentices that I know of in his shop over the last 40-years with a steady stream of them coming straight from Roberto Venn over the last two + decades.

Jim Olson has mostly been his own solo “ one-man factory” over that same period of time. He has been generous in opening his shop and work practices to others who make derivative SJ inspired instruments (e.g. Applegate, Wise etc.). I believe Heinonen actually spent some time helping Jim in his shop.

Ervin’s base price is $40,000 (options can raise this significantly) and Jim’s is $15,000 while most instrument coming off his bench with options cost significantly more. So while there are many Olsons made in the $30,000+ range, Jim’s guitars base price less than 40% of Ervin’s.

I believe that ex-apprentices and luthiers who make derivative guitars scale their base pricing against the brand equity of the “master” they emulate what the free market will bear based on supply and demand. After some time in the market; their own respective reputations and the perceived value of their work tends to amplify or subtract from this reference pricing.

Rational, cogent, mathematical. I would pay an up charge for this post!

[SiliconValleySJ]

I'd agree that this is complex. Cost of living certainly factors in given that Minnesota is just cheaper than other areas, but a lot of it is demand. Kostal and Buendia have long wait lists and can keep raising their price to achieve a certain equilibrium. So a lot of variables are at play and it's hard to generalize.

With Jim Olson, both Brian Applegate and Drew Heinonen actually built and apprenticed with him.

[Michael Watts]

Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

As others have pointed out, Ervin Somogyi has had at least 22 apprentices that I know of in his shop over the last 40-years with a steady stream of them coming straight from Roberto Venn over the last two + decades.

Jim Olson has mostly been his own solo “ one-man factory” over that same period of time. He has been generous in opening his shop and work practices to others who make derivative SJ inspired instruments (e.g. Applegate, Wise etc.). I believe Heinonen actually spent some time helping Jim in his shop.

Ervin’s base price is $40,000 (options can raise this significantly) and Jim’s is $15,000 while most instrument coming off his bench with options cost significantly more. So while there are many Olsons made in the $30,000+ range, Jim’s guitars base price less than 40% of Ervin’s.

I believe that ex-apprentices and luthiers who make derivative guitars scale their base pricing against the brand equity of the “master” they emulate what the free market will bear based on supply and demand. After some time in the market; their own respective reputations and the perceived value of their work tends to amplify or subtract from this reference pricing.

Yes, that about sums it up.

There are a lot of factors at play here but in my experience the most telling has been what happens after any initial interest wanes. What scope is there for longevity once people stop approaching you for a "cheap Somogyi" which is sadly the mindset of so many buyers.

[Carmel Cedar]

Originally Posted by SiliconValleySJ

With Jim Olson, both Brian Applegate and Drew Heinonen actually built and apprenticed with him.

I'm not sure that's correct. I asked this of Jim a few years ago and he indicated he helped others out with info and some support, but didn't have apprentices or co-builders (of his guitars, anyway). If you have a better source (or if my memory is off), you may well be correct. I've not seen substantiation of the above statement.

* EDIT * In response to post below, it's clear there was help from and some form of working relationship with Jim, but it didn't appear to be apprenticeship as most luthiers practice it. iim7V7IM7 put it beautifully as I re-read his post; it's probably best to leave it at that. Brian and Drew are highly skilled builders, and richly deserve acclaim on their own merits.

[SiliconValleySJ]

Drew Heinonen for sure, and I believe Brian as well. It's all over older Applegate descriptions and the relationship between those two men (and the Applegate family) is documented.

They are the only 2 that can lay claim to building with Jim Olson for any amount of substantial time.

[steveh]

Originally Posted by no1i

Olson and Somogyi guitars have similar price ranges

Sorry but just not correct if we consider what they are best known for:
The archetypal Olson is a cedar/IRW SJ.
The archetypal Somogyi is a spruce/BRW MD.
I can buy x3 of those Olsons for one of those Somogyis, and that differential applies new or used.

Cheers,
Steve

[Jeff Mc]

Originally Posted by steveh

Sorry but just not correct if we consider what they are best known for:
The archetypal Olson is a cedar/IRW SJ.
The archetypal Somogyi is a spruce/BRW MD.
I can buy x3 of those Olsons for one of those Somogyis, and that differential applies new or used.

Cheers,
Steve

I look at this differently. If you added the BRW and other options included in the Somogyi pricing to the Olson, it might not be $40k but it would be up there. I don’t think Jim has a wait list but is only building one batch a year and building orders that interest him. I doubt that he is building many base models these days.

[Carmel Cedar]

Several of Jim's 2018 and 2019 guitars sold for substantially more than $40k this year. These were exceptions to his more typical builds of the last 3 years, but I believe they went for more than Ervin's guitars usually sell for (though he likely also has done special ones). Ervin's base price is higher, but on specific guitars, "it depends".

I must admire them from afar!

[steveh]

It’s also relevant that several of the “apprentices” got locked into exclusive dealerships, with all of the inevitable price-hikes that ensues, contingent on marketing, hype etc. etc.

It’s no secret who’s working in Ervin’s shop and there have beeen dealer relationships already waiting for them when they emerge, the ink barely dry. For example, Jason Kostal was already represented by TNAG before his first guitar had left his own shop.

Cheers,
Steve