Monitoring volume levels while mixing and mastering

[FrankHudson]

A recent thread here has led me to wonder about best volume levels to be listening at when mixing and mastering.

I do a lot of composing, mixing, mastering. Though I'm not an expert, I'm fairly sure I do more of this than many here. I'm also old, and my ears have had some exposure to loud rock'n'roll over time. No persistent ear ringing, but also probably less high end left than a younger person has and a little "what did ya'say sonny?" geezer hearing loss.

I do play and record some loud electric guitar in a live room. Even there I try to keep it at moderate levels compared to stage and standing right in front of the stage volumes I encountered when I was young.

I tend to edit and mix at lowish volumes using either headphones or JBL 308 monitors in a small room. I will listen to what I think is a final mix at slightly higher volumes, and master at a similar perceived level. I just downloaded a SPL meter app (who knows how accurate) and the final levels I'd use for rock band stuff on my monitors were peeking at less than 75 db, and was mostly in the low 70s, and for acoustic guitar and vocal, lower than that, more like a range from 58-65. When I put on my headphones, I may be a bit lower than those levels, but I'm not sure. I held my phone in-between the cups of phones and got something that jumped around a bit more than the external monitors, mostly between 50 and 60 db with acoustic guitar and vocal stuff.

I supposed I could have tried to measure in LUFS, but the default at least on the app I downloaded was db.

But a recent thread on headphones hinted that my mixing and mastering headphone driving interface may not be able to deliver appropriate (high enough) levels. Maybe I should mix while monitoring at higher levels? This leaves me with this question:

What level do you listen when mixing and mastering your recordings at?

In summary, I tend to do editing and mixing at lower levels and then rise to the levels of around 65 db for acoustic guitar, and around 8 db or so hotter for loud rock for a final mix/master test.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

A recent thread here has led me to wonder about best volume levels to be listening at when mixing and mastering.

I do a lot of composing, mixing, mastering. Though I'm not an expert, I'm fairly sure I do more of this than many here. I'm also old, and my ears have had some exposure to loud rock'n'roll over time. No persistent ear ringing, but also probably less high end left than a younger person has and a little "what did ya'say sonny?" geezer hearing loss.

I do play and record some loud electric guitar in a live room. Even there I try to keep it at moderate levels compared to stage and standing right in front of the stage volumes I encountered when I was young.

I tend to edit and mix at lowish volumes using either headphones or JBL 308 monitors in a small room. I will listen to what I think is a final mix at slightly higher volumes, and master at a similar perceived level. I just downloaded a SPL meter app (who knows how accurate) and the final levels I'd use for rock band stuff on my monitors were peeking at less than 75 db, and was mostly in the low 70s, and for acoustic guitar and vocal, lower than that, more like a range from 58-65. When I put on my headphones, I may be a bit lower than those levels, but I'm not sure. I held my phone in-between the cups of phones and got something that jumped around a bit more than the external monitors, mostly between 50 and 60 db with acoustic guitar and vocal stuff.

I supposed I could have tried to measure in LUFS, but the default at least on the app I downloaded was db.

But a recent thread on headphones hinted that my mixing and mastering headphone driving interface may not be able to deliver appropriate (high enough) levels. Maybe I should mix while monitoring at higher levels? This leaves me with this question:

What level do you listen when mixing and mastering your recordings at?

In summary, I tend to do editing and mixing at lower levels and then rise to the levels of around 65 db for acoustic guitar, and around 8 db or so hotter for loud rock for a final mix/master test.

I tend to mix at a mid-ish volume maybe 50- 70 ? But I will change when listening back and listen at both fairly low, and up to fairly high, maybe 80 , for a very short period .. At lower I think you can hear if the bass or high's drop away inordinately ,,, at higher I think you hear if there is distortion creeping in ...

[rick-slo]

I have read about 83 decibels on forte part of the recording (one of Bob Katz's books I believe) is a good level for mastering decisions. The "Fletcher Munson Curve" thing and reasonable ear damage protection.

Read "Mastering Audio" if interested:
http://exellon.net/book/Mastering%20...te%28a4%29.pdf

I don't necessarily stick to that for solo guitar recording but I have it
in mind to play with different playback volumes.

[sdelsolray]

Most studio cats mix/master at about 80 dB or slightly above.

I'm usually a bit below that in the range of 65 to 80 dB.

[Bob Womack]

Hi, Frank!

Back when I was studying audio in college we were taught that the level where the ears are "flattest" in response was 85db. The ear and brain aren't ever really a flat transducer/listening system. As the sound gets quieter the brain naturally optimizes response to be able to hear a whisper. But you want the system as flat as possible, and 85 is the target. Also, at 85db you are able to tolerate eight hours of exposure. However, at 85db for 8 hours, an employer is required to enact hearing conservation measures to prevent damage. Sooo...

I've always had wimpy ears. I found that I could detect hearing fatigue in myself as I went throughout the day and have limited my exposure levels in the control room accordingly. I wanted to be able to mix and master music for an entire career and here I am at sixty-four and my career is still growing. I bought my own sound pressure level meter and did studies of my exposure. What I found is that my average serious monitor level is around 78db when I am mixing and mastering. I will jack it up as far as about 83db for short spurts but it makes me pull in my neck after a short while. But I don't work in a static way. I'll do a mix and then rack the monitor level down to around to 60db to see how casual listener will experience the music. I also do the business of closing the volume and then bringing it up until I hear first sound. On vocal music you typically want to hear kick drum, snare, and vocals first as you raise the volume.

It is very difficult to get a decent idea of the SPL of a pair of headphones without a dummy human head system. The best way to get a ballpark is to set your monitors for the desired SPL with a loudness meter going and then trim the headphones to match that perceived level, conservatively, when you take them on and off with the monitors running as well.

You can hear the results of monitoring levels in some recordings from before pop engineers were applying science to monitoring levels that tell you something about the effects of monitor level on recording and mixing. There was a period in there when American recording practices allowed control room levels to get really loud, and bass and treble fell off dramatically. You can also take a lesson from Stereo systems of the '70s and the '80s. Do you remember the "loudness contour" offered on most systems back then? The good circuits boosted the bass around 100hz and the treble around 10khz. The less expensive ones boosted only the bass. They did this because they knew that a typical person listened at a low level where the bass and treble were lacking. If you monitor too quietly, the natural tendency is to make the recording too bassy and trebly.

Well, it's an ear full but I hope it helps!

Bob

[Glennwillow]

I use a sound meter when doing a mixdown and shoot for about 72 db average levels with occasional peaks to about 78. To me, that seems pretty loud. I can't imagine mixing at levels of 85 db.

My ears are still in pretty good shape; I wear no hearing aids.

- Glenn

[Brent Hahn]

Back when 1. mix bus compression was either less aggressive or not a thing at all, and 2. I was usually in a commercial studio with clients attending, I'd monitor a lot louder than I do now. I couldn't tell you what it'd read on an SPL meter, but it's pretty quiet.

I also do a once over on headphones, which I rarely used to do before, to check for bad edits and other junk. It used to be that you didn't have to check edits because there weren't any. But now, in your average 40-track band song, there might be 100. And some of them will be on tracks that were played and recorded elsewhere, consolidated, and then dropboxed to me with the bad edits baked in.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

I use a sound meter when doing a mixdown and shoot for about 72 db average levels with occasional peaks to about 78. To me, that seems pretty loud. I can't imagine mixing at levels of 85 db.

My ears are still in pretty good shape; I wear no hearing aids.

- Glenn

Like Bob noted 85 was for many years considered to be the flattest response and what especially those mixing Rock were often using.

But hopefully that has changed , because studies have concluded that sustained exposure to 85 and above can in fact cause damage ..

And I would guess my construction (carpentry) noise induced hearing loss in the 3khz to 4khz reflects that

[FrankHudson]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

Hi, Frank!

Back when I was studying audio in college we were taught that the level where the ears are "flattest" in response was 85db. The ear and brain aren't ever really a flat transducer/listening system. As the sound gets quieter the brain naturally optimizes response to be able to hear a whisper. But you want the system as flat as possible, and 85 is the target. Also, at 85db you are able to tolerate eight hours of exposure. However, at 85db for 8 hours, an employer is required to enact hearing conservation measures to prevent damage. Sooo...

I've always had wimpy ears. I found that I could detect hearing fatigue in myself as I went throughout the day and have limited my exposure levels in the control room accordingly. I wanted to be able to mix and master music for an entire career and here I am at sixty-four and my career is still growing. I bought my own sound pressure level meter and did studies of my exposure. What I found is that my average serious monitor level is around 78db when I am mixing and mastering. I will jack it up as far as about 83db for short spurts but it makes me pull in my neck after a short while. But I don't work in a static way. I'll do a mix and then rack the monitor level down to around to 60db to see how casual listener will experience the music. I also do the business of closing the volume and then bringing it up until I hear first sound. On vocal music you typically want to hear kick drum, snare, and vocals first as you raise the volume.

It is very difficult to get a decent idea of the SPL of a pair of headphones without a dummy human head system. The best way to get a ballpark is to set your monitors for the desired SPL with a loudness meter going and then trim the headphones to match that perceived level, conservatively, when you take them on and off with the monitors running as well.

You can hear the results of monitoring levels in some recordings from before pop engineers were applying science to monitoring levels that tell you something about the effects of monitor level on recording and mixing. There was a period in there when American recording practices allowed control room levels to get really loud, and bass and treble fell off dramatically. You can also take a lesson from Stereo systems of the '70s and the '80s. Do you remember the "loudness contour" offered on most systems back then? The good circuits boosted the bass around 100hz and the treble around 10khz. The less expensive ones boosted only the bass. They did this because they knew that a typical person listened at a low level where the bass and treble were lacking. If you monitor too quietly, the natural tendency is to make the recording too bassy and trebly.

Well, it's an ear full but I hope it helps!

Bob

Let me take an opportunity here to thank you (and others here) for the useful info/advice I've gotten.

The reason I felt the need to try to figure out headphone SPL levels was because of another thread here where I was reading that I one may want to have an interface with a headphone amp capable of considerably higher levels. I do a lot of perceived non-EQ critical work on my recordings at lower levels anyway -- like, which take has fewer train-wrecks and I do that a lower levels. But being hip to Fletcher-Munson (and yes, I remember "loudness buttons") I do crank it higher than when making final mixing and mastering decisions. From you and others, I'm starting to gather that some do (or did) mix a higher db levels that I do, but like you I'm hoping to avoid it to the degree that I can.

As to those high db mixes, I also remember LPs with the admonitions that it was mixed to sound best played loud. Particularly with my acoustic guitar stuff, I'm not sure anyone would want to stream it at 85 db levels into their earbuds.

[Bob Womack]

The James Gang Rides Again: "Made loud to be play loud."

Producer/Engineer Bill Szymczyk remastered later it so that it sounds good at normal levels.

Bob

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

The James Gang Rides Again: "Made loud to be play[ed] loud."

Made stoned to be played stoned.

[DupleMeter]

This is a tricky one, and an ongoing discussion in the professional audio world.

As others have said, 85dB was once thought to be where we achieved the legendary "equal loudness curve", as proposed by the Fletcher-Munson theory. But, as we learn more we realized that it was only good in theory. In fact, exposure to 85dB for prolonged periods of time will cause hearing damage. And because of the methods used to produce sound, they were not as accurate as they could have been.

The latest idea is to use filtered pink noise that focuses on the most sensitive parts of our hearing (mid-range from 500Hz-2kHz) that's been normalized to -23 LUFS, and measure each speaker at listening position to read 73dB on a C-weighted, slow response dB meter. This is the current ITU 1770-4/EBU R 128 standard.

I have my monitoring system normalized so that "0" on my monitor controller is that exact level. but then I often mix lower (-6 or -9 dB lower) and bring it up for short periods to check my overall balance.

[Glennwillow]

Really interesting information ^^^ Steve! Thanks for that!

- Glenn