Bluegrass -- how small is too small?

[djg]

So I'll try to frame this question in a useful way and I know that I'll come up short.

I'm doing a lot of commuting this year and purchased a GS mini to have in my home away from home. HV model. I'm very happy with the thing -- cool little guitar, very, very portable, very playable, and nice tone (real guitar tone, not guitar-ish-travel-thing tone). All good.

So then, with no bluegrass background other than listening, I sign up for a bluegrass group class thing -- more playing than teaching and I show up with the mini. It's fine. Nobody gives me a hard time (one guy seemed to think it was cool) and it works ok. But in that context, I just did not like it at all. Still playable, sure, but it sounded thin to me in a way that bugged me. I was surprised how much it bugged me.

So this is not about becoming a true Bluegrass die-hard and I'm aware that it's a music scene with some very traditional elements to it. But let's say you want to show up and play here and there with understanding folks who will not kick you to the curb if you show up with something that's not a D-18 or one of 4 other approved guitars. But you want to hear your guitar and fit in all the same (fit in with the music, and not just the people). What's the smallest thing plausible? Do I just cart my OM up there? Look for a dread again? I mean, I know that a D is the easy call, but I have favored an OM for a while, and have one bad shoulder, etc., etc.

Sorry if this seems like "what's a good guitar if I kinda want to play Bluegrass but not really" but if you see a sensible question in here, I'd be glad for your opinion. And if you don't, well, I reckon some will have at it in any case.

[HHP]

Sort of like asking how to be just a little bit pregnant. If you want to be heard, and you're in a large group, you'll need a big, full size guitar. OM or 000 is fine if you're just playing with a fiddler or mandolinist, add banjos and dobros to the mix and you'll need the cubic inches.

[kydave]

Try the OM & see if you like it in that context.

If so, great!

If not - go with the obvious and take a good dreadnaught. (note emphasis on "good")

[DesertTwang]

Just for what it's worth, I'm a die-hard bluegrass fan (it's almost all I play), and I have shown up to countless jams with my Mini. Never did I have a problem to be heard or be accepted. Now, it's true that the Mini sounds a bit tinny, and we don't have to argue about whether or not it can replace a full-size guitar (it can't), but I have seen countless guitar players in jams with vintage Martin dreadnaughts who play so quietly that I have no trouble blowing them away volumewise with my Mini. It's all about how you play. All that said, I do have a dreadnaught and a 000-15sm, both of which I prefer to play in jams. I only take the Mini when I'm too lazy to lug around a full-size guitar or if I don't want to take a nicer guitar for whatever reason (for example camping at a festival when it's very hot, for example). But I also play a small body archtop at bluegrass jams every once in a while, and while many bluegrassers scoff at it, it usually turns their heads once it's capoed up really high and rings out like a bell over all that dreadnaught mush.

[DesertTwang]

Originally Posted by HHP

Sort of like asking how to be just a little bit pregnant. If you want to be heard, and you're in a large group, you'll need a big, full size guitar. OM or 000 is fine if you're just playing with a fiddler or mandolinist, add banjos and dobros to the mix and you'll need the cubic inches.

I respectfully disagree with that, from my own experience. Especially in a large group, having a dreadnaught doesn't automatically give you the volume you need to be heard. As I said earlier I have been in countless jams where my Mini was louder than many a dreadnaught. It's all about how you play. Of course it can't provide the same volume, bass response and fullness of sound, but as long as we're talking about getting heard, the Mini doesn't have to hide.

I always cringe when I hear someone call a dreadnaught a "banjo killer." There is no such thing. The only thing that qualifies as a banjo killer is a guitar with a microphone and an amp. I have never heard even a prewar Martin come anywhere near the volume levels, unamplified, it would need to truly compete with a banjo or any of the other louder instruments. I regularly play my Martin 000-15sm in bluegrass jams and the difference in volume to a dreadnaught is zero. The dreadnaught has a more thumpy bass and sounds more mushy overall, but those are not very useful characteristics when it's about being heard.

In my opinion, the reason why dreadnaughts, especially Martins, are believed to be louder than other guitars in bluegrass jams is purely based in perception and preconceived notions, because many bluegrass players see them as the "right instrument" and that's all they need to believe they are louder.

The only way to be heard in a bluegrass jam as a guitar player, no matter what you play, is by good musicianship. In other words, the other instruments quieting down substantially.

[SongwriterFan]

Seems to me that the other players could learn to just "turn it down" a notch or two so that ALL the instruments involved could be heard.

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

Seems to me that the other players could learn to just "turn it down" a notch or two so that ALL the instruments involved could be heard.

Impeccable logic

[SJ VanSandt]

In my experience it's not the soloing that is a problem at jams for small guitars - plenty of good quality ones can cut through fine - but the rhythm playing. I find that other instrumentalists really like it when the rhythm guitar plays Carter-style bass lines on the downbeats (especially is there is no bass player to do that), and the smaller the guitar the less bass volume it's going to have - I think that is going to be true even with exceptional instruments. So my advice would be to play as small of a guitar as you want - but recruit a bassist to go to the jam with you.

[Blueser100]

DesertTwang raises an important point about player's technique and volume. I discovered that I actually had a pretty light touch when I brought my D18V to a Pete Wernick jam class. I started paying attention to my dynamics, started woodshedding on rest strokes and such. I highly suggest learning to play rest strokes with your flat pick as it can dramatically improve your volume when you need to pump it up. But having said that, yes, there is something to be said for folks learning to turn it down too!

To the OP: Your guitar is going to sound different in a jam mix vs by yourself at home, no matter the size. It's like playing at home with a 15watt amp and having it be fine volume-wise and then realizing it gets drowned out when you are in a room with four other guys and their amps. If you feel that the small body can't give what you need in such contexts, you might keep a decent dread around for just such an occasion, even if it's not your main guitar and especially if bluegrass is your focus and you anticipate participating in more jams.

[djg]

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

Seems to me that the other players could learn to just "turn it down" a notch or two so that ALL the instruments involved could be heard.

Yes, sure. To be clear, I could hear the mini playing as I did, and I could lay into it more if it came to that. My wondering had a little to do with volume but much more with tone. The sound that I liked on its lonesome sounded really wrong to me with all those other instruments.

I could just deal and play, of course. Or cart my OM up there, as I might well do (it's a very good OM). Or ponder a dread.

Glad for the input -- thanks to all, and keep it coming.

[sbeirnes]

For the few months I had a GS Mini, I took it to a couple of BG jams. No issues at all.

The thing cut through nicely but I never really liked the tone and the narrow neck made some things harder to pull off, so I sold it.

Use what ever works for you. Nothing wrong with using your OM.

[mc1]

minimum bluegrass size here, if you don't need a cannon or banjo-killer:

[guit3090]

We all know most guys use Dreads in Bluegrass. But I think that you could make an om work, especially for rythmn guitar. Fiddles, mandolins and banjos are all loud instruments. Have Fun.

[Br1ck]

I had my eyes opened this summer at the Hardly Strictly Bluegrass festival in San Francisco, where a few groups were playing miced either individually or around one condenser. A few of the bands had two guitarists, one playing a dread, the other usually with a small 15 series Martin, and those all hog guitars cut through like nobody's business. The proliferation of the 15 series amongst the roots and Americana acts surprised me and you could hear them loud and clear.

I would not hesitate to take my 00 15 out to play with the big boys. Also in a group setting the 15 sits in a different sonic space. If you want horsepower a D 15 would be in order, but don't screw up your body playing one. It's not worth it.

Originally Posted by guit3090

We all know most guys use Dreads in Bluegrass. But I think that you could make an om work, especially for rythmn guitar. Fiddles, mandolins and banjos are all loud instruments. Have Fun.

Actually the reverse is true. If everyone is doing their job, the other instruments back down during solos. In that case, a good 000 or OM will work fine. Even a good 00 could be heard if all goes well. Rhythm is the one place were the boom of a good D-28 has no equal, although you can get by with a good D-18.

If the "jam" is really more of a free-for-all, then nothing will be heard, which hardly matters because there really isn't much music going on.

All that is true for true Bluegrass music, if what you have is a mix of acoustic music with a Bluegrass flavor, then many more guitars would fit the bill. The goal really matters. The OP bought the Mini as a travel guitar, which is fine, you can't play the big guitar you left at home. However, when I've tried to "cheat" on this sort of thing, I've always been left longing for my "better" guitar.