Outdoor Foolishness and SAR Abuse

[fitness1]

Originally Posted by Draft Guitar

T This was not an overly dangerous situation that the SAR team was in.

You seem to not understand that it COULD have been a dangerous situation, just because it ended OK, he should have made a better decision based on the prior knowledge he had.

If he was older, had a medical condition, or low skill level, these are all the more reason he should have not gone, and would have likely worsened the outcome.

Simple as that - not going to argue with you about this any longer, all I know is I would NEVER create this possible situation knowingly for a rescue team. 365 days in a year - don't go if you know it might not be safe.

[Draft Guitar]

Originally Posted by fitness1

You seem to not understand that it COULD have been a dangerous situation, just because it ended OK, he should have made a better decision based on the prior knowledge he had.

If he was older, had a medical condition, or low skill level, these are all the more reason he should have not gone, and would have likely worsened the outcome.

Simple as that - not going to argue with you about this any longer, all I know is I would NEVER create this possible situation knowingly for a rescue team. 365 days in a year - don't go if you know it might not be safe.

I understand far better than you think. You have a different opinion, don't claim I don't understand. I am responsible for emergency response on a large scale.

Edit - Fitness1, I should have responded to your comment better. I apologize. It has been a tough week for me and I don't need to take it out on this forum. We have different opinions and I'm ok with that. Now it's time to take my aggression out on my J-45. I hope it's ready.

[rampix]

RP, you originally asked a simple question that I’d like to reply to. Yes, he should pay, perhaps in the form of a donation to the SARS team. The funds would be to help finance the teams training, equipment and transportation costs. The donation vs invoicing would leave options for those unable to pay and remove the need for making a judgement as to whether or not there was extreme negligence involved.

As someone who has backpacked, bushwhacked and spent as long as 2 weeks backcountry mountaineering in the high Sierras alone, I would never have departed on a trip in those conditions. I’ve been caught in several unexpected storms (weather forecasts weren’t as reliable 50 years ago) but either sat out the storm in my tent or navigated my way out by map and compass (no GPS’s back then either) if conditions allowed. I understood the risks, was prepared and experienced in mountain survival and my wife knew my itinerary. She also understood that if a storm blew in that I’d sit it out and not to call SAR for 24 hours after it passed. But as I said, I would not have hiked into those conditions.

I know some mountain rescue folks here in the Rockies and they are honor bound to try and rescue even the foolish. They are dedicated people who knowingly put themselves at risk to help/save others. Even though they willingly volunteer for this, they deserve a reward from those that put them at risk IMO.

Sorry for the long winded reply RP, but I think you get my just.

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by fitness1

I've done a whole lot of solo excursions into much more volatile environments than the Blue Ridge, and wouldn't have considered any of them with that kind of information beforehand.

Mmmm... The Southern Appalachians can seem tame, but under their exterior lie the oldest mountains in the world. I personally have witnessed sunny days in the 70s followed by a forty-five degree drop in temperatures accompanied by snow in the space of five hours more than once in Shaconage (pronounced Sha-Kon-O-Hey) the Cherokee word meaning "Land of Blue Smoke," The Great Smoky Mountains and their surrounds. When I lived there, those swings weren't part of any forecast I could find. However, experienced local highschoolers including friends of mine went snow camping up there regularly. After some experience I decided that I didn't like Appalachian* snow camping quite that much.

Shaconage manages to surprise folks from out west who think she is tame compared to their mountains. Some of them need rescue as well.

Bob

* Down in Shaconage it is pronounced, "APP-a-LATCH-an," sharing the same pronunciation and etymological root ("ridge") as its Cherokee brother "Apalachicola." Folks from the lower altitude, more northern end pronounce it "app-a-LAY-chen" and snicker at the hillbillies. Hmmm... Don't believe them. Etymology doesn't lie. Usually.

[RP]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

...I personally have witnessed sunny days in the 70s followed by a forty-five degree drop in temperatures accompanied by snow in the space of five hours more than once in Shaconage (pronounced Sha-Kon-O-Hey) the Cherokee word meaning "Land of Blue Smoke," The Great Smoky Mountains and their surrounds. When I lived there, those swings weren't part of any forecast I could find.
Bob

While researching my book, Mountain Bike! Virginia in the mid-1990s, I was riding at Grayson Highlands State Park on a beautiful Easter Sunday. Very warm mild day, but hours later strong wind gusts and a 50 degree temperature drop with snow flurries almost blew me off of my mountain top camp site near Mount Rogers, Virginia's highest elevation. BTW Grayson Highlands is in Rugby, VA near Wayne Henderson's shop and also the site of his annual festival...

[fitness1]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

Mmmm... The Southern Appalachians can seem tame, but under their exterior lie the oldest mountains in the world. I personally have witnessed sunny days in the 70s followed by a forty-five degree drop in temperatures accompanied by snow in the space of five hours

Oh, you should see what my pack looks like when I went up some of the peaks in that area!!

I became one of the over-prepared based on my very first alpine experience in the meadows below the lower saddle on Grand Teton. My buddy and I were meeting a guide he'd climbed with before for an excursion the next day,.

It was August 5th if memory serves.....was 80 degrees, and in the space of 4-5 hours it went to 30, snow and hail with 60 mph winds. We laid around the perimeter of the tent to hold it down for over 30 hours until it passed. The little "creek" beside the tent turned into a torrent and washed a good portion of our food away too!

As scary as it was, I was thankful for the lesson that has stayed with me for about 35 years now - and makes me think things through before I make any moves at altitude.

[emtsteve]

I have over 15 years of volunteer and paid Fire/EMS/SAR experience, with the last 10 years or so in leadership. I taught Wilderness first aid classes for Boy Scout groups heading to remote areas and one of the main points there is that an injury avoided is the best treatment. I also have spend many days/weeks in the wild hiking, canoeing, camping, etc.

A few points I'd like to make:

1. According to the article, the weather was forecast to be extreme. This person should have been prepared for that and they weren't. Error in judgement.
2. Yes, this is what SAR does, and believe me, if it weren't for the foolish and unprepared, we'd have a lot less work.
3. We will come and do our best to save you, even if you were stupid and we will save the judgement (or at least keep it to ourselves) because at that point it doesn't matter.
4. We will always be doing risk/benefit assessments and will cease rescue efforts if the risk to our personnel becomes too high. This is highly situational and response leaders are continually evaluating the risk/benefit equation based on changing conditions.

A generous donation to the local SAR team from this person would be a great thing to do. Also, someone mentioned Good Samaritan laws. These only apply to the general public. Professional responders, volunteer and paid, have a duty to respond. But that doesn't mean we will put our people at risk unnecessarily.

[Nama Ensou]

Originally Posted by emtsteve

A few points I'd like to make:

1. According to the article, the weather was forecast to be extreme. This person should have been prepared for that and they weren't. Error in judgement.
2. Yes, this is what SAR does, and believe me, if it weren't for the foolish and unprepared, we'd have a lot less work.
3. We will come and do our best to save you, even if you were stupid and we will save the judgement (or at least keep it to ourselves) because at that point it doesn't matter.
4. We will always be doing risk/benefit assessments and will cease rescue efforts if the risk to our personnel becomes too high. This is highly situational and response leaders are continually evaluating the risk/benefit equation based on changing conditions.

A generous donation to the local SAR team from this person would be a great thing to do. Also, someone mentioned Good Samaritan laws. These only apply to the general public. Professional responders, volunteer and paid, have a duty to respond. But that doesn't mean we will put our people at risk unnecessarily.

Steve, this is probably the best post of the whole thread. Straight to the point and professional.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by emtsteve

[*]Yes, this is what SAR does, and believe me, if it weren't for the foolish and unprepared, we'd have a lot less work.

Thanks for the perspective. I think that *by definition* most SAR operations will be to rescue the unprepared. If they were prepared, they might not need so much rescuing. (Not that totally unforeseen accidents and mistakes can't happen to very experienced and prepared people, but obviously the chances are much less.)

[SingingSparrow]

i was friends with some folks working for fish and game in new hampshire. we used to hike the white mountains a lot - especially in the winter. one fine sunday afternoon, we encountered a lady on the top of the mountain. she was struggling. she was alone. and decided to join us (three of us) and on our way back down, she fell and seemed quite hurt. she didn't think she was able to walk anymore. she specifically said to me: "i think i tore my psoas" seemed in a LOT of pain.

one of the guys with us was from fish and game and another was a local rescue volunteer. they get in touch with their buddies and soon rescue arrives and we are now a team of 24 people with a stretcher. 8 people carry the stretcher at a time and swap every few. the going is slow. we rest a lot. we manage to get her down. it took a long time.

later, fish and game accused her of faking the psoas injury. i really don't have details (and did not care to find out). what i do know is she was ultimately charged about 20 thousand dollars for the rescue by fish and game because of being ill prepared to be in the mountains above tree line in the winter.

one summer, fish and game did a rescue with a chopper. i was not involved but some close friends were. it was a summer thing, the stranded hiker was wearing cotton shorts and shirt. later, he was charged not only for the chopper (which was bloody expensive apparently) but also fined for not wearing proper hiking attire - which is wool or wicking synthetic, not cotton - and for not having emergency equipment (bivy, stove, etc.).

rescues are not easy. and put people at risk. they are however necessary. respect is important. as is humility.

[RP]

Originally Posted by SingingSparrow

...rescues are not easy. and put people at risk. they are however necessary. respect is important. as is humility.

So very true, and I couldn't summarize my attitude about the subject of the article in the OP any better...