ToneDexter - Verdict?

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by Andy Howell

Not my experience but then I had decided I wanted one — they were helpful talking about power supplies. They were also very helpful about delivery — I wanted it for a gig but wasn't at home until the day before. They looked out for my order and then held despatch until the right day.

To be honest I couldn't have asked for anything more. I would use them again.

Maybe their attitude is different if you're a distance buyer that's just making a pre-decided purchase. I certainly won't be rushing there in any hurrry again, and I've been a local customer of theirs for 30 years!

[gfirob]

It may be (speaking as a fanboy) that overheated rhetoric about Tonedexter may not be helpful to people who are considering buying one. It did seem “miraculous” to me the first time I began using it and I have seen jaws drop. It really does work—for me. It solved a very major and long standing problem I had with the sound of my pickups and in a way I felt as if I had been given my original guitar sound back.

But it may not be for everyone. It is new science. It does require a new kind of preparation and use. It is another gadget with power needs, cables and so forth.

The comment is fair that players who are super picky about the nature of amplified sound may find themselves going down the rabbit hole of never ending adjustments. I loaned it to a friend who just kept making more and more wave maps, long after the point of diminishing returns, trying to catch the perfect wave. Even so, he felt that this was something very different and he was very impressed with it. He just couldn’t stop making further changes.

So to each his own. But I would not perform without it now, if at all possible. I suppose the desire to hear the true sound of the guitar is a psychological thing, a personal thing, since most people in the audience don’t know the difference. But that clarity of sound gives me a kind of confidence while performing, and that is very important to me. Why own a guitar you love if you can’t hear its true sound when you perform?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by gfirob

I
But it may not be for everyone.

Absolutely, everyone has different tastes and needs. If not, there'd be one type of guitar in the world and we'd all use the same gear. As i reported in another thread, when I tried TD with a number of players, one guy really didn't like it. Why? He said it made his guitar sound like it did acoustically, and removed all the quack. He said he and his band's "sound" was based on quack... So TD removed his band's signature sound! (I know a band I'll skip seeing, but hey, whatever works for them.) I'm actually surprised at what seems to be a relatively high percentage of people who seem to be positive about ToneDexter.

Incidently, I'm more like your friend, I keep trying to get better wavemaps. And I'm also still trying to figure out how to integrate ToneDexter into a system that leverages my dual source setup, so I can have my cake and eat it too.

[BluesKing777]

‘Trying to catch the perfect wave’....love that, thanks Gfirob!

My luthier/friend/guitar tech told me a beauty about endless fiddlers - ‘the only trouble with adjustable bridges is that ......people adjust them’

But they could drive themselves mad with this stuff. Another friend years ago bought the latest Mac tower and ProTools and that kept him quiet! But then I got a phone call, he bought Photoshop to make his own brochure and cd covers...and would I come over and show him how to use it?

I’m starting to think I fluked my good wavefiles? I did use a great mic, Neumann KM184...but all I did was plug it in, plug the guitar in...and pressed the go button.

BluesKing777.

[Mbroady]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Sorry if "miraculous" was over the top, I was thinking about all the jaws I've seen drop when they try it for the first time, especially people with bad-sounding USTs.

Perhaps "Miraculous" is a little over the top, but considering it does what they say it’s supposed to do, Which is, assuming you are using a recommended pick up, and are able to create a great wave map, it gets you close to your natural guitar sound (for better or worse) only louder.

The only caveat for me is it does it better than any prior technology, unless you are using a dual source system that has a mic and you are going through a great system. But you already touched on that.

So, Miraculous works for me. I particular enjoy hearing the transition while training. That’s the part that makes the “jaw drop”

Perhaps one day you will demo a stereo set up with pick up via tonedexter and an internal mic into another pre, as compared to just a good stereo mic set up.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Mbroady

The only caveat for me is it does it better than any prior technology, unless you are using a dual source system that has a mic and you are going through a great system. But you already touched on that. up.

I think with any setup, the "great sound system" is one of the most important things. The best sound I've ever heard live was a young lady playing a Taylor with a Fishman Rare Earth. it was astonishing and memorable. But it was in one of those mega-churches with a gazillion-dollar sound system, and who knows what processing the sound guys did. A big issue for most of us is that we don't get to play thru systems like that, but if we did, I think pickups would be less of an issue. Unfortunately, we can't carry around a system like that even if we could afford one, and in many venues, we don't get to choose.

One thing I've been pleasantly surprised with ToneDexter is that it still sounds good thru just a combo amp. Clearly not as high fi as a great PA, and you're not getting the full effect, but it does get rid of that annoying plasticy sound I hear in every pickup I've tried, and does it even thru a simple amplification setup.

I had some conversations with the TD gang early on about finding some way to close the loop and fix not just the pickup, but the amplification chain, including the amp. Still seems like an interesting idea, and someday I'll mess with it, maybe, but maybe that's asking for too much.

I do plan to do some videos on dual source systems, someday soon.

[BluesKing777]

Don’t forget to do some new Tab books, Doug!

But on the PA system comment, how would you rate playing with some really good headphones to hearing the same thing in a nice PA?

But I do know what you mean, having been lucky enough to be on a long bill of artistes in a huge concert rig a few times. After that, everything else is just ‘little’....forever!

BluesKing777.

[caveman101]

Has anyone tried multi mics into a mixer then into the tone dexter for the profiling?

[capohk]

I bought my TD specifically as the best potential solution to playing my National El Trovador live in my acoustic folk band. I am also obviously hoping it will give me a great sound on my go-to acoustic for live stuff - my '46 LG2 and my mando.

Two questions:

1. When I complete a training, I toggle between the Wavemap, the (I assume) raw pickup and the mic. While the Wavemap is clearly a vast improvement on the pickup as heard through the TD, it still is significantly different to what is heard on the mic. Is this right or should I keep re-training until I get a Wavemap that matches the mic's sound?

2. Has anyone noticed consistency in the effect of different mic placements i.e. a certain position emphasises a particular tonal element? My initial attempts have rendered a sibilant, treble heavy tone which accentuates string squeak and other artefacts. I can probably EQ this out, but not ideal...

[phcorrigan]

Originally Posted by Mbroady

As mentioned above having a battery pack would be nice a for a quick plug and play, otherwise you have to have an outlet.

You can buy a rechargeable battery pack on Amazon or eBay for about US$25.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by BluesKing777

Don’t forget to do some new Tab books, Doug!

But on the PA system comment, how would you rate playing with some really good headphones to hearing the same thing in a nice PA?

I have some ideas for instructional stuff and/or new tunes/tabs on the todo list. Anything you've got in mind? (PM me or something, so as to not thread drift any more than we have :-))

The headphone question is interesting, especially as related to ToneDexter. I don't think a high quality PA is the same thing as hearing direct thru headphones. There's still a lot of "smoothing" of the tone that happens with any speaker, and having the sound bouncing around in a room. Headphones are just too direct. I've tried using in-ears, and I don't know how people do it with acoustic guitars and pickups. I can't stand the sound of the direct pickup in my ears (talking about without ToneDexter). I can't (don't want to) play if that's the sound I have to hear.

But ToneDexter in earphones is great! First time I tried it, with a touch of reverb in the headphones, I thought "this is almost better than just playing acoustically". I don't really play in situations where I need in-ears, but I think if I did, even if for some reason I didn't use ToneDexter for the audience feed, I'd use it for my own monitors. Let the audience hear the quacky piezo :-) (I'm joking), but I'd be happy listening to the ToneDexter sound in the in-ear monitors!

[BluesKing777]

No joke, Doug, if the phone rang and I got offered X (like an offer a lazy old muso couldn’t resist), I have seriously considered taking the Sennheisers after years of flakey foldback.....and they can get what they get out front..... Really nice headphone setup for my playing is my Boss VE8 for vocal reverb/EQ and vol controls to balance guitar, run the XLR out and they can do their best/worst and I would still have the sound I practice with. and of course, everyone would ask me if I was a DJ.

P.S. Do any TAB books u like, not fussy as The Xmas and Fiddle ones are fantastic.


BluesKing777.

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I had some conversations with the TD gang early on about finding some way to close the loop and fix not just the pickup, but the amplification chain, including the amp. Still seems like an interesting idea, and someday I'll mess with it, maybe, but maybe that's asking for too much.

Hi Doug, I am really curious to know what would you ask for the amp?
I've seen you are using QSC K8.2 which had good reviews on the AGF.

I also wonder what will you do to get the 3-D stereo sound with a single box.

Something like a dipole/bipole speaker or something more exotic like the Benkcube?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

Hi Doug, I am really curious to know what would you ask for the amp?

I was just thinking about how the pickup is only part of the equation. Making the pickup itself sound like the acoustic sound of the guitar doesn't address the way a speaker alters the sound, so I was wondering if it might be possible to include the entire path: pickup, preamp, amp, speakers in the training process, so that rather than the pickup being made to match the sound the mic hears, the sound out of the speaker would be more like the sound the mic hears right in front of the guitar. Ideally, I'd like the audience to hear what the guitar sounds like from the mic's position. So what if instead of the ToneDexter input being the direct pickup, it was the sound coming out of the speaker? It was just a wild thought, probably not practical to solve, especially since room acoustics comes into play. But there are modeling speaker systems out there, and modeling preamps, etc, etc, so what if you could model (and correct) the entire signal path? I've been meaning to try this, tho... Just not high on the priority list, since I suspect it won't work.

I've seen you are using QSC K8.2 which had good reviews on the AGF.

As a monitor, usually. I have a pair of K10s as mains for when I need a PA.

I also wonder what will you do to get the 3-D stereo sound with a single box.

Not sure what you're referring to, but that gizmo looks pretty exotic!

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I was wondering if it might be possible to include the entire path: pickup, preamp, amp, speakers in the training process, so that rather than the pickup being made to match the sound the mic hears, the sound out of the speaker would be more like the sound the mic hears right in front of the guitar.

There are many loudspeaker brand that use FIR filtering to correct their loudspeaker response.

https://www.rcf.it/read-more/firphase

This basically is what you want.... Since the speaker's response should be flat and fast (within a certain dynamic range).

QSC Touchmix also has a Room tuning Wizard that basically does that (without the phase correction).



You can also go the DIY way with REW and any DSP
https://www.minidsp.com/applications...uning-with-rew