The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 05-20-2022, 01:44 PM
cliff_the_stiff's Avatar
cliff_the_stiff cliff_the_stiff is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,808
Default

I’m out.
OP- I prefer a dovetail joint. Bolt on necks are good too.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 05-20-2022, 02:21 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,961
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadie-f View Post
I think questioning whether SCGC would publish that without foundation is a bit of a stretch, and @cliff's discussion of the effects of discontinuities in a vibrating structure is spot on.
Companies publish opinions without foundation all the time. Just about every product advert contains at least one. SCGC is a guitar company. Their goal is to sell guitars. To your knowledge, have they ever performed a valid experiment that controls the other variables and proves the dovetail is tonally superior? I've never heard of any guitar company or builder pulling that off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadie-f View Post
and @cliff's discussion of the effects of discontinuities in a vibrating structure is spot on.
Again, what Cliff was asserting is unproven. People can certainly have opinions and that is what Cliff was expressing... an opinion. A scientifically valid experiment may prove him right but it may also prove him wrong. We don't know that until the experiment is designed and performed in such a way as to isolate the neck joint as the only variable effecting the sound of the instrument being used.

Earlier in this thread I described what that experiment would entail. It would not only be difficult to do, it would be expensive to do. The latter part is the most likely reason we're having this debate. I'm sure reaching definitive answers for questions like these would be wonderful to have, but we are where we are for now.
__________________
Jim
2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

YouTube
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 05-20-2022, 02:24 PM
Br1ck Br1ck is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: San Jose, Ca
Posts: 6,947
Default

I like gold fairy dust,but there are those who like theirs silver.
__________________
2007 Martin D 35 Custom
1970 Guild D 35
1965 Epiphone Texan
2011 Santa Cruz D P/W
Pono OP 30 D parlor
Pono OP12-30
Pono MT uke
Goldtone Paul Beard squareneck resophonic
Fluke tenor ukulele
Boatload of home rolled telecasters

"Shut up and play ur guitar" Frank Zappa
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 05-20-2022, 02:45 PM
koolimy koolimy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 369
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cliff_the_stiff View Post
Most have said that there is no tonal benefits between the differing joints. I disagree. I think the wood joints vs bolted joints make fuller sounds. In extreme comparison, pick bright guitars and bright woods like a Taylor 614, and a Gibson J185 and play them back to back and both sound fantastic, but the Gibson just has more character or something. I think it’s the neck joint.
In similar discussion here last week someone posted the faq from SCGC about necks and such. It was Richard Hoovers opinion that everything down to the density of the woods and the weight of the tuners would have a contribution to the tone.
Hi, I don't want to pile onto you, but I built a Cherry/Adirondack Martin Scale J-185 from a kit, with a bolt on neck, so I thought I could provide some insight into why the J-185 sounds the way it sounds.

I find my J-185 sounding quite a lot like the J-185s I listened to in youtube videos, even with the Martin scale (as opposed to the 24.75 scale), the different woods, and the bolt on neck. It had a warm, tubby, vintage kind of sound. I think the biggest contributor to this sound is the fact that the top is built w/ no radius on it, as opposed to most guitars that have a radius (i.e. 28ft). Of course all things affect the sound, but that gets my vote for the biggest contributor.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 05-20-2022, 03:05 PM
Gas's Avatar
Gas Gas is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Location: Planet Krypton
Posts: 588
Default

With all the qualifiers you have laid out for a new guitar, how about a kit? Buy one from Stew Mac, come in below budget and have exactly what you want. My $.02

https://www.stewmac.com/kits-and-pro...c-guitar-kits/
__________________
2022 Martin D28 Modern Deluxe
2022 Collings CJ35
1998 Gibson SJ200
Various other acoustics
Various electric guitars and amps
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 05-20-2022, 03:16 PM
lowrider lowrider is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,012
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by s2y View Post
I have several bolt-on acoustics that have phenomenal tone.
Yes there are great sounding guitars with bolt on necks, but their makers don't say that the neck joint contributes to that tone. The dovetail builders believe that the neck joint is an important part of the sound.

I've never played a Taylor from before they went to the bolt on necks, but people refer to those guitars as the ''golden age'' of Taylor, did the neck joint make a difference?
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 05-20-2022, 03:21 PM
musicman1951 musicman1951 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 4,994
Default

It's not something that enters my mind when I'm auditioning guitars, but both of mine do have dovetails.

I firmly believe that everything affects sound, but there is no way to reasonably say that there is no difference between a dovetailed neck and a bolt on neck - or that there is. How could you tell? Compare one with a dovetail to one without? The only think we know for sure is that you can't make two guitars that sound exactly alike, so how would you know if the difference you hear is the neck joint?

I buy the guitar that sound the best and don't worry about it. If you're worried about the price of a neck reset you're simply not paying enough for your guitars.
__________________
Keith
Martin 000-42 Marquis
Taylor Classical
Alvarez 12 String
Gibson ES345s
Fender P-Bass
Gibson tenor banjo
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 05-20-2022, 04:08 PM
nostatic's Avatar
nostatic nostatic is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2022
Location: central coast
Posts: 900
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
Earlier in this thread I described what that experiment would entail. It would not only be difficult to do, it would be expensive to do. The latter part is the most likely reason we're having this debate. I'm sure reaching definitive answers for questions like these would be wonderful to have, but we are where we are for now.
"scientific experiments" applied to musical instruments are largely a fool's errand. At the end of the day, a human plays an instrument, and the human is not able to remove their internal biases from the process. So it they believe something to be true, it likely will be reified.

Some builders have a lot of empirical knowledge acquired over time. Because of the nature of the beast - particularly dealing with wood which always has variability between pieces and over time - good builders notice what tends to work and what doesn't, and iterates from there. I know builders who tone-tap, even solid body instruments. I know other builders that claim it is snake oil. Can you do a "scientific experiment" to prove one way or another? Maybe (still a lot of variables to control for), but we're back to the final process which is a human plays the instrument and their biases will influence the outcome.

Do we ignore science for musical instruments. No. But I certainly thinks slavishly invoking "science" in these conversations is usually just forum noise. The sound that comes from an acoustic guitar is governed by a lot of factors. Really the only question is how much each bit contributes to the overall outcome. And since it remains more archer than arrow, at the end of the day what works for one may not for another - no matter what the "science" says.
__________________
Beard Radio R Squareneck Hipshot | Martin 000-28 CA 1937 | Collings OM1 JL | Collings I-30 LC | Anderson Raven
Rob Allen, Fodera, Fender basses
2022-2023-2024 albums | nostatic site

“Sometimes science is more art than science…” - Rick Sanchez
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 05-20-2022, 04:08 PM
Troubador Troubador is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,996
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
To immensely varying degrees, yes. But I've never met nor heard of anyone who can play a guitar blindfolded and tell us what kind of neck joint it has. The OP is getting himself lost in the weeds worrying over neck joints.



THAT should be the foremost consideration.



If your finances are that tight, I'd think spending money on any guitar might be a bad idea, but if you must, maybe stick to guitars on the very low end of the cost spectrum so that in the future, should they need neck work, it would be cheaper to just replace the guitar with another very inexpensive one.
The reason I can get a high end guitar at present is because I already have one to finance a new one with. In the future, I would have trouble financing either an inexpensive guitar or a neck reset on an expensive one. Might as well get the expensive one while I can. Besides, I still have my old Sakura, and I hope my Recording King will be around for a long time.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 05-20-2022, 04:09 PM
Troubador Troubador is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,996
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinistral View Post
In the context of lutherie, neck joints are as close as one can come to religion, and religion is not a permitted topic on the forum. Some very well-respected luthiers and guitar makers claim that a dovetail neck joint is sonically superior—Richard Hoover of SCGC is one example.

Santa Cruz Guitar Company—What’s Our Secret?



Plenty of other well-respected luthiers and guitar makers claim otherwise.

This topic has been hotly debated here and elsewhere. Here are a couple of threads on the topic that were closed because the discussion overheated:

Dovetail vs bolt on neck joint

Dovetail or Bolt On

There are many more discussions on the topic—here is a sampling:

Mortise & tenon vs. dovetail neck joints?

Dovetail or Bolts ??

Luthiers reaction to Gibsons comment about Dovetail VS Bolt please

To the Martin afficionados: Mortise tenon vs. Dovetail neck joint

Are you sold on the bolt-on joint as opposed the traditional dovetail

Dovetail or bolt-on - again?

Dovetail and Bolt-On Necks: Can you Hear the difference?

Significance of a Dovetail Neck Joint

Are Dovetail necks going extinct?

Bolt on neck or dovetail



This is really sound advice (no pun intended).
Thanks for all the links. I'll enjoy reading!
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 05-20-2022, 04:11 PM
Malcolm Kindnes Malcolm Kindnes is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,963
Default

I'm astonished that people can have such strong opinions about neck joints.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 05-20-2022, 04:12 PM
Troubador Troubador is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,996
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfChris View Post
Most bolt-ons have a mortice and tenon, which makes a reset much easier if the joint isn't glued.

Glued mortice and tenon joints are harder to release than dovetails. To release a glued joint you have to soften the glue, and then ease the joint apart. Once the dovetail starts to rise up, the dovetail sides (where the glue is) lose contact with the pocket, and you've won. In an M&T joint the tenon sides are still in contact with the pocket all the way up, so it can be a struggle all the way as the glue fights to keep the tenon attached.
Thanks for the explanation. I was thinking that the Martin HD-16R would be easier and cheaper to have a neck reset done than on a HD-28, but I guess not, based on what you said.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 05-20-2022, 04:13 PM
Troubador Troubador is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,996
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cliff_the_stiff View Post
I’m out.
OP- I prefer a dovetail joint. Bolt on necks are good too.
Thank you for your post.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 05-20-2022, 04:46 PM
nostatic's Avatar
nostatic nostatic is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2022
Location: central coast
Posts: 900
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm Kindnes View Post
I'm astonished that people can have such strong opinions about neck joints.
hello, and welcome to the internet...
__________________
Beard Radio R Squareneck Hipshot | Martin 000-28 CA 1937 | Collings OM1 JL | Collings I-30 LC | Anderson Raven
Rob Allen, Fodera, Fender basses
2022-2023-2024 albums | nostatic site

“Sometimes science is more art than science…” - Rick Sanchez
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 05-20-2022, 04:55 PM
dnf777's Avatar
dnf777 dnf777 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: NW Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,655
Default

I have the utmost respect for luthiers who cut and join compound dovetails, or reset them. Every fiber of wood removed can affect neck position on three axes. But I have even more respect for the traditional Japanese masters, who could probably cut our dovetail necks blindfolded, with one arm tied behind their back. They build furniture and houses with no nails, no glue.
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg 4FDD81FA-2D24-43F4-97EC-24ABA467A962.jpeg (28.7 KB, 70 views)
__________________
Dave F
*************
Martins
Guilds
Gibsons
A few others
2020 macbook pro i5 8GB
Scarlett 18i20
Reaper 7
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=