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  #1  
Old 06-26-2019, 06:51 PM
Tico Tico is offline
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Default Does that Plek machine check neck angle?

I read a straight edge touching all the frets should 'land' on the top of the bridge.
Seems pretty simple.

Here on AGF I keep reading about Martins shipped with incorrect neck angle.
I also keep reading on how so many Martins go through their Plek® machine.

Isn't neck angle important?
If Plek can't check it, could some other machine check neck angle?

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  #2  
Old 06-26-2019, 07:03 PM
George Henry George Henry is offline
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You shouldn't need a pork machine to check neck angle. All you need is a straight edge and/or your eyes.
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  #3  
Old 06-26-2019, 09:53 PM
mirwa mirwa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tico View Post
I read a straight edge touching all the frets should 'land' on the top of the bridge.
Seems pretty simple.

Here on AGF I keep reading about Martins shipped with incorrect neck angle.
I also keep reading on how so many Martins go through their Plek® machine.

Isn't neck angle important?
If Plek can't check it, could some other machine check neck angle?

Plek does not check neck angle, plek gives reference to the strings and the structure underneath with a very high accuracy which is super exaggerated on the display screen.

A good plek console operator can interpret this information and identify if a neck reset is required.

A good luthier can look at your guitar with their eyes and also inside of 15 seconds tell you if a neck reset is required.

Steve
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Old 06-26-2019, 10:49 PM
tadol tadol is offline
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The plek can check the nut slots and saddle, as well as the fretboard surface and the top of the frets, and map it all out for the technician, so while it does not specifically check the neck angle, it can check the relationship of all those components, and tell you how much the saddle can be lowered. It should also be able to measure the bridge, which could give you a measure of how much saddle is protruding, and even mill the saddle, but it doesn’t seem like the most effective way to do it -

A plek is capable of quite a bit, but the programming and use of it is by no means standard or universal. It can do both both measuring, as well as milling, so how it gets used, and the programming that is used with it can be very different from shop to shop -
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Old 06-26-2019, 11:54 PM
Tico Tico is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mirwa View Post
good plek console operator can interpret this information and identify if a neck reset is required.
... are you suggesting that none of the Martins that have been Pleked need a neck reset?
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  #6  
Old 06-27-2019, 03:27 AM
ManyMartinMan ManyMartinMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tico View Post
... are you suggesting that none of the Martins that have been Pleked need a neck reset?
None of my Martins have ever needed a reset in well over a 100 in over 30 years of professional purchasing. Why worry about a hypothetical? Just another form of brand bashing as far as I see. It’s simple enough to buy a great guitar by playing, or evaluating, it - without calling out a specific manufacturer.
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Old 06-27-2019, 03:29 AM
ManyMartinMan ManyMartinMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tico View Post
If Plek can't check it, could some other machine check neck angle?
YOU can check the neck angle without any machine.
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  #8  
Old 06-27-2019, 04:10 AM
mirwa mirwa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tico View Post
... are you suggesting that none of the Martins that have been Pleked need a neck reset?
dont know how you got that from my reply

Steve
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  #9  
Old 06-27-2019, 06:42 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManyMartinMan View Post
None of my Martins have ever needed a reset in well over a 100 in over 30 years of professional purchasing. Why worry about a hypothetical? Just another form of brand bashing as far as I see. It’s simple enough to buy a great guitar by playing, or evaluating, it - without calling out a specific manufacturer.
Not to be argumentative, but, first, the obvious reason for concern is as the OP stated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tico View Post
Here on AGF I keep reading about Martins shipped with incorrect neck angle. I also keep reading on how so many Martins go through their Plek® machine.
Given that Martin now "Pleks" their guitars, but there appear to be neck angle issues, it seems a pretty reasonable question to ask whether or not a Plek machine is capable of detecting poor neck angles.

Second, it seems like it should be "simple enough to buy a great guitar by playing or evaluating it". However, it appears that many buyers are unable to do so. It appears to largely be an issue of education on what is "great" to the individual buyer and being able to determine if a specific instrument does or does not have "that".

The fact that Martin, in particular, seems to have "frequent" issues on new instruments having inadequate neck angles is a concern for new-guitar buyers. I don't see that as "brand bashing": I see that as being prudent. Your forum handle, ManyMartinMan, suggests you are likely not very objective when it comes to discussion of the brand.

Having said that, many guitars will need a neck reset during the course of their lifetime. I agree that if one has ensured that the guitar they intend to buy has an adequate neck angle, there is no reason to worry about it needing a neck reset at some point in the future. Chances are that it will, but, with traditional neck design, having a neck reset is common maintenance. Buying a brand new guitar that already needs a neck reset is an entirely different issue - one of manufacturing and quality control - and should be treated as such.

Last edited by charles Tauber; 06-27-2019 at 06:54 AM.
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  #10  
Old 06-27-2019, 08:56 AM
tadol tadol is offline
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A lot of the confusion seems based on the difference between what a Plek can do, and the actual ways different shops (and factories) actually use it. It is entirely possible that the necks are being “plek’d” before they are even attached to the guitar, so neck angle wouldn’t exist. And with the huge number of different models made by Martin, there is no way to know how (or if) a plek machine is even involved in a particular line or model.

A neck being fit the traditional way, with a lightly glued dovetail connection, requires a good amount of careful, precision handwork. Even with the finest jigs and techniques, you need to make very, very fine adjustments - “flossing” the connection - to get the parts aligned perfectly in every axis. If a shop has to meet projected numbers in production, that time may be quite limited, and shortcuts might be taken which can make a new guitar “make the numbers” fresh off the bench. But after getting strung up, within a relatively short period of time those parts can move or compress that very tiny amount that could make it require a reset. I’m not saying Martin, or anyone else, does this, but it is easy for it to happen. So even if the Plek is checking before it goes out the door, it wouldn’t guarantee that a neck reset might not be required some months, or years, or decades, down the road.
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  #11  
Old 06-29-2019, 02:02 AM
mirwa mirwa is offline
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The lighter the build of a guitar the more responsive it is, the lighter the build of a guitar the more it is influenced by string tension and climatic factors. Neck reset is typically to accomodate for the shift in the front bout of a guitar as it settles under tension, the neck block rotates as little as 0.2mm (8 thou for our american counterparts) and this is enough to nessitate a reset.

An acoustic guitar that is made with 5mm thick top sides and back will never need a neck reset. An acoustic guitar made with a 1mm top back and sides will need a reset in the first week of its life.

Some martin models i get in for neck resets and they are brand new sitting on the shelf, typically once the neck has been reset they are an outstanding sounding guitar, they were just simply built lightly and in return are very responsive, this does not just apply to Martin, I also reset brand new Taylor necks amongst many others.

The most important thing is you buy a reputable brand that has warranty for said situations, Martin and Taylor IMO are outstanding examples of fine manufacturing and after market service

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Last edited by mirwa; 06-29-2019 at 02:08 AM.
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  #12  
Old 06-29-2019, 02:48 AM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
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I have seen a brand new high dollar martin guitar straight out of the box that needed a neck reset, but it was some years ago.

I have had three guitars "PLEKED" in my time and all need the hand of a skilled tech to finish the job by hand and eye.

I understand that PLEK machines are used a great deal by higher volume production brands brand, and by some high volume dealers in Europe, and the authorised repairer for the brand I use.

PLEK machines are AFAIK - effectively single use CNC machines.
Even simpler tools like a spade or a screwdriver are only as good as the user.

The £135 I paid for each PLEK process was only because my tech couldn't resolve an issue which I now put down to my guitars getting cold in their cases over a period of time in storage against a cold wall (not RH - temp.)

I doubt I'd consult a PLEK user again.
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  #13  
Old 06-29-2019, 08:43 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mirwa View Post
this does not just apply to Martin, I also reset brand new Taylor necks amongst many others.
But, the difference is that Taylor - and other guitars - are designed so that the neck angle can easily, inexpensively be adjusted. Martins are not.

One is a $75-ish repair, the other $350 to $600, depending. Many Martin owners report being without their instruments for months while the work is done. Taylor, and similar, owners report the work being done "while-you-wait".

I'm not saying that Taylor are "better" than Martin, simply that one uses a method of neck attachment that addresses a known problem, the other doesn't. As long as buyers/owners are aware of what they have bought into, that's fine.

Guitar makers can attack the problem from two directions. First is to try to stiffen the guitar body so that it better resists the deformation caused by string tension, but in such a way as to retain responsiveness. Second is to use a neck attachment method that allows for easy adjustment when the expected deformation occurs.
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Old 06-29-2019, 03:09 PM
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rick-slo rick-slo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tico View Post
I read a straight edge touching all the frets should 'land' on the top of the bridge.
Seems pretty simple.
Not really. Personally I would rather a new guitar have a proper string action height with taller saddle than that would allow. You benefit by having some leeway to lower the saddle in the future as needed as the guitar settles in and ages.
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  #15  
Old 07-17-2019, 03:33 PM
Tico Tico is offline
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Thanks all for an informative discussion.
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