My Taylor 712 12 Fret has Awful Tuners... How About Waverly?

[Taylor814]

I have snake wood Waverly's on my Taylor 2008 GC Fall Limited, but the only reason I did so was for looks. I don't believe they function any better, and since the Taylor tuning ratio is 18:1 vs. 16:1 for Waverly, one could argue that the Taylor tuners might be more precise. The snake wood just looks great next to the cocobolo headstock veneer.

[Jabberwocky]

Gilbert Tuning Machines are excellent.Their looks are polarising; most folk dislike the look. But they work very smoothly. Yes, steel string rollers are available.

https://gilberttuners.com/products/build-your-own

[Jabberwocky]

Originally Posted by Stanstep3

...Eventually I realized that the source of the issue was the end of the shaft binding in the hole in the center of the headstock. A little powdered graphite in each one and they are much, much smoother now.

Hope this helps,
Stan

You could also use carnauba wax or beeswax in turpentine. The rollers turn as if they have ball-bearings at the ends of the shaft. I wax the walls of all the holes. 12 in all. Fancy slothead tuning machines have ball-bearings on the shafts. Needless to pay for the ball-bearings as wax works just as well.

[3notes]

33 posts in this thread and I counted 6 that had an issue or were not happy with the Taylor machines.

I say.... Whaaaaaaa...?????? On guitars that are over $2000.

Sorry folks, but that ain't good.

I know, I've opened a can of worms. And they stink too.

Of all the guitars I've owned, I've never had any issue with the tuners. Probably 12 guitars.

Go figure....

[Chuckie.egg]

Originally Posted by raduray

According to Taylor, they switched to a different tuner mechanism last year that has a "tighter feel". Unfortunately, the new mechanism has three connected tuners per side, so it is not a drop in replacement, but the old screw holes would be covered, so it would work cosmetically.

Here's a link to the new tuners: https://www.taylorguitars.com/taylor...elslot-head6st

Personally, I don't want to have to drill new holes, so I'll probably go with the Waverlys.

Must have been very late last year. I got my 712ce-12f in November last year and the tuners were still single. I wonder if Taylor now make their own tuners or is it because they switched suppliers?

[Crashcup]

Hello!

I posted a response to this thread a while ago and just got around to replacing the stock Taylor tuners with Waverly 4098-G tuners. It was an easy exchange and, thanks to Radu, I re-used the stock Taylor screws as it was reported by others that the Waverly screws are a tad larger (just in case I wanted to go back--which I don't).

I posted links to videos that compare the performance of each tuner below. Bear in mind that the featured Taylor tuner is the factory replacement of the original tuner that exhibited the same issue.

Waverly's are installed and look great. I have another set of Waverly's that I'll be installing on my 812ce 12 Fret Deluxe as it is exhibiting similar issues.

[HodgdonExtreme]

I have just acquired a 2017 522ce 12 fret with slotted headstock. I have the "old style" individual tuning machines. They don't have a bunch of backlash in the gear mechanism...

...But between the small tuner buttons and whatever ratio the gearing is, I find it quite a bit more difficult to tune than any other guitar I've experienced.

[ataylor]

Call me crazy, but I think Taylor should just use Waverly tuners from the start. They should be standard issue on the slot-head models and an upgrade option on models with the standard headstock.

[Specialized]

Just confirmed with Taylor that the new ebony-buttoned slothead tuners are made for them by Ping. They also have the tapered centers on the posts to help keep the string wrap all together. Each side is a 3-tuner unit, and they don't use the older tuners' screw holes, but they do cover all of them so that when replaced, you don't have to fill any old holes.

[Frank Clum]

I just bought a new Taylor 612e a couple of months ago and after a week or so I noticed that the tuners were turning almost 1/2 a turn before they engaged and actually started to change the string tension. I called Taylor and they offered to send me new tuners without me even asking for them which makes me think that they are aware of this issue. They offered me my choice of the exact tuners or a different style that they have switched to on their most recent builds which are 3-per-plate tuners in a style like a classical tuner would be. I chose the original replacements and was told that if the didn't work to call back and they would send me the others. All very nice customer service by Taylor. I had high hopes for the new tuners. When they arrived I attempted to pop out the old ones and slip in the new ones. Piece of cake, right? Well, when I tried to remove the original tuners, they were so tight that I couldn't even budge them. Afraid of damaging the headstock on my brand-new guitar while trying to get them out, I called Taylor again. They suggested a small drop of oil, wait a while, then try again in a couple of hours. I did it and it worked but even so was exceedingly difficult to get them out. When I attempted to install the replacements they were also so tight that the tuner had to be gently tapped into the inner hole in the headstock. After installing the first one I decided it would be better to try it first before installing the whole set. Same problem! While I was examining the action of the tuner to see what was up I noticed that the arm screw would turn almost 1/2 a turn before the gear would move. As the worm turned I noticed that the metal tabs that the he'd the worm to the backplate of the tuner were actually bending out as the worm turned and then popping back into position when the tension finally got to be enough to turn the gear! Not good! I tried this with the direct replacement Taylor tuners as well as the "3-on-a-plate" tuners that Taylor sent me as an alternative (which I thought were a very low quality tuner with a very small gear attached to the shaft) with the same result on both sets.

I then ordered a set of Waverlys from StewMac which slipped effortlessly into the peg head; both holes! After a little examination I noticed that the shaft of the Waverly was ever so slightly shorter than the Taylor pegs. What I've deduced is that the inner hole on the slotted peg head of my guitar was likely drilled in a way that caused it to be slightly tapered at it's deepest point, causing the tip of the shaft to bind in the hole when I tried to tune. Once the worm gear put a certain amount of force on the shaft gear (and bending the "ears" in the process) the tuner would essentially pop free of the wood in the peg hole and start to move. Considering how many people I've seen posting with tuning problems related to slot head Taylor steel string guitars, I suspect that this be a design or manufacturing defect! A bit disappointing to have to spend an additional $150.00 and waste a couple of weeks just to play the guitar that I spent over $3000.00 to buy.

Other than that, the guitar is beautiful!

[fazool]

Originally Posted by Frank Clum

I just bought a new Taylor 612e a couple of months ago and after a week or so I noticed that the tuners were turning almost 1/2 a turn before they engaged and actually started to change the string tension. I called Taylor and they offered to send me new tuners without me even asking for them which makes me think that they are aware of this issue. They offered me my choice of the exact tuners or a different style that they have switched to on their most recent builds which are 3-per-plate tuners in a style like a classical tuner would be. I chose the original replacements and was told that if the didn't work to call back and they would send me the others. All very nice customer service by Taylor. I had high hopes for the new tuners. When they arrived I attempted to pop out the old ones and slip in the new ones. Piece of cake, right? Well, when I tried to remove the original tuners, they were so tight that I couldn't even budge them. Afraid of damaging the headstock on my brand-new guitar while trying to get them out, I called Taylor again. They suggested a small drop of oil, wait a while, then try again in a couple of hours. I did it and it worked but even so was exceedingly difficult to get them out. When I attempted to install the replacements they were also so tight that the tuner had to be gently tapped into the inner hole in the headstock. After installing the first one I decided it would be better to try it first before installing the whole set. Same problem! While I was examining the action of the tuner to see what was up I noticed that the arm screw would turn almost 1/2 a turn before the gear would move. As the worm turned I noticed that the metal tabs that the he'd the worm to the backplate of the tuner were actually bending out as the worm turned and then popping back into position when the tension finally got to be enough to turn the gear! Not good! I tried this with the direct replacement Taylor tuners as well as the "3-on-a-plate" tuners that Taylor sent me as an alternative (which I thought were a very low quality tuner with a very small gear attached to the shaft) with the same result on both sets.

I then ordered a set of Waverlys from StewMac which slipped effortlessly into the peg head; both holes! After a little examination I noticed that the shaft of the Waverly was ever so slightly shorter than the Taylor pegs. What I've deduced is that the inner hole on the slotted peg head of my guitar was likely drilled in a way that caused it to be slightly tapered at it's deepest point, causing the tip of the shaft to bind in the hole when I tried to tune. Once the worm gear put a certain amount of force on the shaft gear (and bending the "ears" in the process) the tuner would essentially pop free of the wood in the peg hole and start to move. Considering how many people I've seen posting with tuning problems related to slot head Taylor steel string guitars, I suspect that this be a design or manufacturing defect! A bit disappointing to have to spend an additional $150.00 and waste a couple of weeks just to play the guitar that I spent over $3000.00 to buy.

Other than that, the guitar is beautiful!

I've never heard of problems. Maybe it's new. I found the Taylor slot head tuners to be the best slot head tuners I've seen, simply for the excellent feel (lack of backlash) and the center-tapered shaft(which even the most expensive aftermarkets don't offer).

I looked on their website and was surprised to find, yes indeed, they changed over (or are in the process of changing over) to three on a plate style. I like that much less.

[Monsoon1]

Originally Posted by Turp

Frank,

My 2007 GC8 had some stiff tuners, mostly the G. It was horrible. It turned to be the hole was*minutely*under sized. I would have it looked at or you could switch another tuner in just to check it.

I have Waverlys on one x12 and Grover Sta tites on another.

Waverlys are a drop-in replacement. Everything lines up perfectly. FYI- Grover Sta tites 18:1 are not; the holes are a little off, but can be altered. While the Grovers do feel better than the Taylors, the Waverlys operate better than either. I am likely going to replace the Grovers for Waverlys; they are worth the expense.

This is certainly a possibility. If OP has a set of dial calipers, he could measure the hole vs. the specs from Taylor. If it is undersized, a new set will also likely be too tight as well. At that point it would probably take a very precise reamer to get it to proper spec. You can find an exact size quality reamer for under $15 shipped on ebay.

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

Good point.

One of the features of a worm-drive gearing arrangement is it won't allow back-driving. On a tuning machine, the tuner button shaft can drive the capstan, but the capstan cannot drive the tuner button shaft.

Yes! I've lost count of the number of times I've read, 'I need new tuners, mine are not holding tune', posts here and elsewhere. If a tuning stability problem exists the cause is usually 99% elsewhere-and 99% of the time it is from poor stringing technique. Even the nastiest, most sloppy tuner will not reverse under load once the string is coaxed to pitch.

[phcorrigan]

Originally Posted by FrankB2

I had a set of Gotohs on an Alvarez Masterworks MP70, and they were silky smooth in comparison.

If you're going to replace your tuners you might consider Gotohs. I just replaced the factory tuners on my HD-28V with Gotohs and I'm very happy with them.

[fazool]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Yes! I've lost count of the number of times I've read, 'I need new tuners, mine are not holding tune', .

Yes it is one of those urban legends that will not die.

You are 100% correct.

Tuners have nothing to do with tuning stability.

People view the world in a certain way (even though they don't understand the underlying laws of the universe that governs it) and so they convince themselves of something and if you try to explain to them "that's physically impossible" they get angry because you challenge the way they think the world is.

Seriously, people dig their heels in on this topic (and inelastic string elongation) like the flat-worlders or moon-is-fake people.