Help!=Recording Microphones

[AcousticDreams]

In this area, I really have no right to say one way or the other, As I am once again just a beginner and seeking your advice. My recording experience goes back to the early days of the 70's and 80's and even then..it was limited. Regardless, I will throw in my two cents and say that I think that both of you have good points - both ways.
In the early days...I recorded in mono..well because..I only had One U87 at first. And it did work. But I always wanted more..which is typical of myself..always looking for the next hill to climb. And that is how new inventions & techniques get invented-by climbing that uncharted hill. So maybe mono works best in many situations..and maybe Stereo works best in others.
Basically, I have never believed in just one way. It may be that one way is the most sound and most practical, but one way never suits all situations, and one way never gets anything new discovered.
In many areas I have broken lots of rules..and the rewards were great..(but I will also admit...that breaking the rules cause me lots of frustration and years of sweat until I found the path the was right for me)
The best thing I can say...Is all of this discussion is nothing short of wonderful...your concepts, arguments bounce around my head back and forth...No he is right, No the other person is right..No...they are both right.
And that is a very good thing.

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by DesolationAngel

I've tried really hard to think of acoustic guitar as a stereo source (mostly since this thread began and since I remembered what Mixerman wrote)... and I just can't. When I'm listening to myself play, I don't hear stereo. I certainly don't hear stereo in the way that I hear when I record acoustic guitar in stereo (my guitar doesn't 'wrap itself around my head'). Now, that's not to say that I don't like it or don't want to do it sometimes, myself, especially when it's solo acoustic guitar. I just don't hear it that way. I might hear some reverberation. I might hear some echo. But mostly, I just hear a delightful guitar tone coming from the guitar.

When I'm mixing other instruments I most certainly don't want stereo guitar unless I'm trying to make it sound like two guitarists are playing in two different positions in the stereo field (like, sometimes, with electric guitar, for that classic twin-axe attack type of thing).

There are things in my line of work (photography) that are most certainly not 'real', which is not to say that I won't use them sometimes for effect but they don't represent reality... I feel the same way about stereo acoustic guitar.

Exactomoondo! When I see a beautiful woman on the street..my mind fills in what she is inside & outside-princess-cinderella...The look in her eyes alone can transmit desire. But If I was to photograph her...I might have to pose her, dress her...direct her, and most importantly use lighting and surroundings to to convey what I first thought and saw in my mind...of course photographs are 2d.
I think in recording, there must be some similarity here. While recording is more 3d, it still may not convey what our minds transposed the sound to..what our minds think the sound is. When I see American Idol and that awful auditioning singer...who thinks he or she can sing...I say to myself...HOW could that person not know that they can not sing. Maybe, because in there minds..they are making it something more than it is. Well recording in general is making it more than it is..by adding reverb, eq...Sure we can play in reverberant fields..Who did not take there guitar into the bathroom in the old days and get some echo off the tile? But no matter what..we are altering the sound to some degree in recording. Making it like we would like it to sound.
Of course, I am a big fan of fantasy.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

The more quotes I read from "Zen and the Art of Recording" the more I think the author does not know what the h*** he is taking about when it comes to stereo recording a guitar (and various other instruments naturally). Anyway the best evidence is in the recordings themselves.

Eric (mixerman) has little, if any, experience with production of solo fingerstyle acoustic or classical guitar recordings. His recording of acoustic guitar is limited to ensemble work, where the AG is a minor component of a larger mix.

Still, Eric's points about mono are valuable.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

Eric (mixerman) has little, if any, experience with production of solo fingerstyle acoustic or classical guitar recordings. His recording of acoustic guitar is limited to ensemble work, where the AG is a minor component of a larger mix.

Still, Eric's points about mono are valuable.

Yep, realize that, and the point(s) about using mono recording techniques when combining multiple instruments was brought up a few times prior in the thread. Application specific suggestions are usually more helpful and valid than blanket statements.

[dragonfly66]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Mics don't absolutely need to be matched. It's best to have matched mics if you're using XY or ORTF, but for spaced pairs or MS (assuming you have a figure 8), they don't need to be, and it may even be useful to deliberately use different mics. Be careful with the Auralex, just putting foam everywhere just kills all the highs, which isn't where the real problem lies. Auralex does make other products, bass traps and so on, that may be more effective.

Thanks Doug, for some reason I was thinking spaced meant ORTF. I'll look up spaced technique again.

I do have bass traps as well as the squares. I have jut put bass traps in the back corners (I only have two). The squares I've put some in front of my desk, behind my desk, the reflection points on the side walls, a few above seated position. I have a SE Space thing for doing vocals. May have to get more bass traps though.

[Mixerman]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

Eric (mixerman) has little, if any, experience with production of solo fingerstyle acoustic or classical guitar recordings. His recording of acoustic guitar is limited to ensemble work, where the AG is a minor component of a larger mix.

Still, Eric's points about mono are valuable.

Please. Surely, I don't record a lot of finger style guitar, but there's nothing complicated about capturing a solo instrument, no matter what it is. As far as I'm concerned, the only reason to capture an acoustic guitar stereo is because you think the recording is more important than the music and the performance. It's not.

From Zen and the Art of Recording: "Sound travels based on the laws of physics, and an instrument has to emit a sound in a room. There is no musical instrument, no matter how foreign, that I couldn’t record well. It would cause me no consternation whatsoever to be presented with an alien instrument so complex in nature that I would have to literally surround it with microphones in order to capture it in balance. I’ve already learned how to record an instrument like this. It’s called drums."

All I'm saying is that if you put two mics in close proximity to a source that isn't 100% stationary, you're going to get the ill effects of those two mics negatively interacting from a shifting player. These maladies would include comb filtering, frequency cancellations, and shifts within the stereo image, which can be distracting to the listener and weaken the capture of the performance.

I've recorded a great deal of acoustic/vocal tracks, including many with Ben Harper, that do indeed include these sorts of maladies, because it was more important to record Ben singing as he played than it was for a pristine and fully coherent recording. The vocal mic interacts with the guitar mic negatively, but it doesn't matter because of how amazing he performs when he sings as he plays. But if you're recording a solo acoustic guitar, there is absolutely no gain that would make the phase coherency issues worthwhile. You could have more effectively captured the instrument with a single point of collection. If the performer is great, the mic will capture it.

The stereo nature of a guitar would come from the reverb or the chamber.

Like I said in my first response, you do whatever you like for your art. It's your art. All I do is explain my rationale for my decisions, and then those who read my advice can experiment and decide for themselves. But to suggest that I don't have the experience to be delivering that advice because of a particular style of playing is absolutely ludicrous on the face of it. I'm not performing the instrument. I'm capturing the sound that the performer gets out of the instrument within a room. So, really, style has nothing to do with it from the perspective of a pure capture.

Enjoy,

Mixerman

[louparte]

I like Mono. I use only 1 mic on guitar.
But I have heard players get better results than I, using two.
So I don't know. I'm inclined to hope Eric is 100% right. I love mono.

My mic's right now are CAD Equitek E300 v 2,
RODE NT-1, CAD c400S. Of all of them right now,
I like the CAD c400S. And it was the cheapest of all by far.

I mic w/1 mic only. But I'd like to try the Blumlein pair some time.

BTW, I recommend that CAD Equitek E300 v 2. I have seen them sell for $500+retail.
They have come way down in price. I bought mine for less than $150. They are extremely accurate and quiet.
And right now, they are often selling cheaper than the Equitek E100 or 200. They are huge LCD's. But they are sturdy.
Mine took a tumble couple of nights ago. It's fine. Keep an eye out for bargains. They are out there.

It's not as warm or colorful as I'd prefer,but it's ****ed accurate and way up front in a mix. It has plenty of presence.

[fhubert]

Not trying to be a negative jerk but it seems to me that we as a collective of impassioned people (guitarists) tend to over think and over complicate things.
Assuming you already have a decent computer and guitar with fresh strings and tuned correctly!
1. Buy a good condenser microphone or 2
2. Buy a good DI
3. Buy a good DAW
4. Use the best room possible
5. Eliminate any other disturbances ie
( Playstation, TV, cell phones etc). These will be recorded and also interfere with your recording gear.

Now record.
JM2C

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by fhubert

Not trying to be a negative jerk but it seems to me that we as a collective of impassioned people (guitarists) tend to over think and over complicate things.
Assuming you already have a decent computer and guitar with fresh strings and tuned correctly!
1. Buy a good condenser microphone or 2
2. Buy a good DI
3. Buy a good DAW
4. Use the best room possible
5. Eliminate any other disturbances ie
( Playstation, TV, cell phones etc). These will be recorded and also interfere with your recording gear.

Now record.
JM2C

Good start anyway.

[Riakstonic]

No privit room for here it's the living room for me lol . I was denied the spare bedroom unfortunately I get all kinds of noise from the room ,kitchen fridge , cartoon network from the boy , open floor plan you see lol but I get fairly good recordings mind the back round stuff .
I use lexicon I onyx u42s interface and Reason 8 on PC mind you Mac is a wishful praying lol if your on PC Lots of free daws Kristal Audio is a good start . Reaper is an excellent next choice .

I'm not poor but not rich so picking and choosing gear is timing but I decided best money spent is on the acoustics . So for Mics I use my ears vrs price I have good luck with the MXL V63m bought on sale

I have one BlueSpark , this was second mic not knowing anything learning as I buy a very good mic that complements the MXL nicely

One MXL 602s got free not my fault they shipped me the wrong one thank you MF

My latest mic is a multi pattern and let me tell you bottom on those if I remember correctly start in mid 2's and just go up , not a lot of choices till you get up in price .

I posted a NGD thread today about my second purchase of this mic the monoprice 600850 large diaphragm multi pattern condenser and I'm impressed especially at the sale price of 149.00 it's of sale but it'll be back just wait it out .

Like most say here each mic has a different voice if your in pro recording like some here you need that Arsenal some voice better on instruments and some are better suited for male vocals and others for females .

If like me just at home player just look for a good reviewed mic one you know is going to work ... I know what !? But really they work but there some cheapies you just don't want . When you a good understanding of your Mics then upgrade and or take chances with unknowns like I did with Monoprice I knew I could send it back and sure was believing that was gunna happen but oops bought another one lol

Anyway any decent mic by any of the name brand manufactures will work well for what most need at home . Every guitar sounds great when it's the only one and no one knows any better same with Mics so long as you stay above the Mr microphone level hahaha ....

If anyone has iPhone you can get a zoom stereo mic or comparable unit . There's tones of recording daws on the App Store

Also as some mentioned above by the knowledgable folks here one would need a interface or Direct in/ DI box

Computer matters more with PC then Mac I feel as to latency issues . Interfaces and some DI's have adjustments for latency .

Also one can us a usb mic as a start for doing mono recording .

Disclaimer ; Recording is an addiction and those here at AGF take no response ability for miss use or uncontrolled spending for new gear . Thank you .

Ok I went on very sorry .

[sonicnuance]

I have been thrilled with the sound of my Rode NT1A. Definitely has a lot of "air"