What to do when the GoRack isn't enough?

[gfa]

Long preamble, followed by questions.

Our live rig is one or two (usually two) LDC mics, with all of the instruments and vocals through the mics (no pickups). No monitors, we're all just gathered around the mics and can usually hear each other just fine. Amp is a Carvin AG300 with an extension cabinet. The only processing is a dbx GoRack. That system made me happy (particularly for the money spent), until last night.

We played in a really loud club; the sort of place where it could be hard to hear someone speaking from more than a couple of feet away with no music playing. We were in front of a wall of windows, and the place had a weird and acoustically unfriendly floor design. Oftentimes we couldn't/could barely hear each other, and you couldn't hear diddley from the cabinets from more than about 10 feet away. The amp had ample unused power, but the noise level and room acoustics left us with inadequate GBF.

Questions:
1. How much impact would monitors likely have on GBF? I know, I know, they're on the "dead" side of the mic, but surely they have some impact.
2. How much difference would it make to upgrade the anti-feedback processing? Any recommendations for particular things to try (i.e., a better automatic anti-feedback device? Graphic EQ? Something else?)? Budget is fairly modest.

Thanks in advance for you wise counsel.

[Villamarzia]

You could go with in-ear monitors and/or upgrade to a better antifeedback like Sabine, but I'd personally think twice about using a LDC mic for such environment. You can try to contain the problem but it would be better to erase it.

[gfa]

Thanks, Villa. I'm wedded to the LDC setup, so the quest is to find something that will make it work better. Any way to say how much difference I'd find between the gorack and a more sophisticated AFB?

straight outta' my phone

[Groovekings]

I'd echo Villa's response. LDC's are not the way to go in loud environments. My duo also uses in ears with great effect. Inexpensive small head amp and wired Shure buds. Easy carry and crystal clear sound. You have a great system and also use a Gorack, which works for us like a charm. Don't get boxed in by the LDC concept - use the right tool for the job. Just my 2 cents


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[pipedwho]

The dBX anti-feedback processing in the GoRack is as good as it needs to be.

There are theoretical algorithms that can cancel feedback into the noise floor, such as acoustic echo cancellation in conferencing systems, but they are hard to do for single sided live audio speech reinforcement and currently impossible for live singing/music.

At a minimum, make sure you have a 1/3 octave graphic EQ or 4 band parametric to even up the system frequency response to avoid wide resonance humps. That'll get rid of broad peaks that notch filters can't deal with. Then you can let the dBx fill in the few small narrow peaks that remain. Beyond that you're right on the edge of GBF, so expect some ringing.

Chances are you might be able improve the situation by a few dB using the above.

For better physical rejection of feedback and ambient noise, the real problem isn't the LDC, but your proximity to the microphone(s). When the ambient volume goes up and reinforcement levels need to go up, you are stuck with the same issues that bands with drummers need to deal with. If you can barely hear the person next to you, then neither can the mic. If you turn up the PA to overpower the ambient 'chatter', then that is going to come back into your mics at some point too. When the room is very reverberant, there is no such thing as 'behind' the mic. Your PA is now outputting a huge percentage of ambient noise (making the problem worse), and your mics are now picking up this extra stage wash from the PA and starting to feedback.

The solution is get on top of your mics.

If you need more mics to be able to do that, then so be it. But in that environment with that much ambient sound, the quality from an LDC will be lost. So you may as well buy some appropriate mics where you can get the capsule as close to the vocal and instrument sources as needed. Maybe that will be an LDC, maybe it'll be a dynamic mic like an SM58/OM7/e835 or maybe even a pencil condenser or direct pickups on your instruments.

For your more intimate gigs, the LDC sounds perfect. But, for loud noisy reverberant pubs, there's no way you're going to get a good amplified sound with a bunch of guys around a single mic unless you're swapping spit.

There's no magic bullet here. If the GoRack along with a broad brush room compensating EQ isn't doing the job, your unlikely to even get a 1 or 2dB improvement from any other processing gear. Feedback destroyers are for that last few dB after room EQ has done the main job to get rid of wide resonance peaks. It shouldn't be finding more than half a dozen frequencies to notch. If it does, then you have wider bands that need to be pulled down in your system EQ first.

This is always a difficult problem, and only you know the real sound levels and the difficulties of getting gear positioned and the band set up. But, at the same time you don't want to place unnecessary limitations on solutions to your problem. Try the above, but be prepared to look at more conventional alternatives.

[gfa]

Thank you, pipedwho.

straight outta' my phone

[FrankHudson]

I'll echo that that the LDC concept isn't going to work well in a small loud club.

If you think you need to stay with an LDC because of some commitment to your ideal sound, as if you were making a studio recording or duplicating some vintage auditorium acoustic music sound--you are not in that environment, so it's probably not possible.

If you were close to getting it right, or have other gigs were is it's close to working, then getting closer to the mics might work. Are you a duo? You could try a single figure 8 mic or a very tight array of two mics that mimic a figure 8, and singing/playing face to face. Might also look good stage-presentation-wise.

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by gfa

Long preamble, followed by questions.

Our live rig is one or two (usually two) LDC mics, with all of the instruments and vocals through the mics (no pickups). No monitors, we're all just gathered around the mics and can usually hear each other just fine. Amp is a Carvin AG300 with an extension cabinet. The only processing is a dbx GoRack. That system made me happy (particularly for the money spent), until last night.

We played in a really loud club; the sort of place where it could be hard to hear someone speaking from more than a couple of feet away with no music playing. We were in front of a wall of windows, and the place had a weird and acoustically unfriendly floor design. Oftentimes we couldn't/could barely hear each other, and you couldn't hear diddley from the cabinets from more than about 10 feet away. The amp had ample unused power, but the noise level and room acoustics left us with inadequate GBF.

Questions:
1. How much impact would monitors likely have on GBF? I know, I know, they're on the "dead" side of the mic, but surely they have some impact.
2. How much difference would it make to upgrade the anti-feedback processing? Any recommendations for particular things to try (i.e., a better automatic anti-feedback device? Graphic EQ? Something else?)? Budget is fairly modest.

Thanks in advance for you wise counsel.

The best thing you could do when you have to work where the ambient noise level eats up all your headroom before you start is to use one or two actual PA speakers on stands to get the bottoms of the speakers a minimum of 6' in the air. From the info you've given your sound has no chance to get out into the room. Even a pair of 8" or 10" powered speakers should be MUCH more favorable and give you a fighting chance to be heard. It's not about volume as such, it's about projection.

How high are your current speakers deployed? Below 6'-7' in the air the major part of your sound is being absorbed b bodies and such and what IS going out is pretty much useless against the ambient noise.

[gfa]

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

I'll echo that that the LDC concept isn't going to work well in a small loud club.

If you think you need to stay with an LDC because of some commitment to your ideal sound, as if you were making a studio recording or duplicating some vintage auditorium acoustic music sound--you are not in that environment, so it's probably not possible.

If you were close to getting it right, or have other gigs were is it's close to working, then getting closer to the mics might work. Are you a duo? You could try a single figure 8 mic or a very tight array of two mics that mimic a figure 8, and singing/playing face to face. Might also look good stage-presentation-wise.

Frank - Thanks. I like the LDC setup because of the way we play together, and hearing each other directly rather than through monitors. Just much more fun for me (and the rest of us). There are usually 4 or 5 of us. It does work pretty well in a non-challenging environment and I do like the sound, but the main motivation is as mentioned above.

Wyllys - The cabinets are on stands. I usually put them on the lowest setting, so the top of the cabinet is probably 5.5 feet up. thanks for the suggestion, I'll try boosting them a bit higher.

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by gfa

Frank - Thanks. I like the LDC setup because of the way we play together, and hearing each other directly rather than through monitors. Just much more fun for me (and the rest of us). There are usually 4 or 5 of us. It does work pretty well in a non-challenging environment and I do like the sound, but the main motivation is as mentioned above.

Wyllys - The cabinets are on stands. I usually put them on the lowest setting, so the top of the cabinet is probably 5.5 feet up. thanks for the suggestion, I'll try boosting them a bit higher.

If you're really curious, you might want to try a comparison of the off-axis coverage and quality between your Carvins and a pair of dedicated PA speakers.
I think you'll find quite a difference. What the difference will man to you I cannot say, but if you find the time and opportunity for a side-by-side trial it's a fun way to spend a bit of time.

[RustyAxe]

Originally Posted by gfa

I'm wedded to the LDC setup, so the quest is to find something that will make it work better.

When a marriage isn't working out it's sometimes better to dump the old, and find a new relationship that will. Pretty much the same with gear.

[TheShadowKnows]

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

When a marriage isn't working out it's sometimes better to dump the old, and find a new relationship that will. Pretty much the same with gear.

...but don't let your wife / girlfriend read that... or she'll get the idea before you!

[Villamarzia]

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

When a marriage isn't working out it's sometimes better to dump the old, and find a new relationship that will. Pretty much the same with gear.

besides polygamy being widely accepted and legal on AGF :-)

[TheShadowKnows]

Originally Posted by Villamarzia

besides polygamy being widely accepted and legal on AGF :-)

You mean: Poly-guitar-my, right? If so, I'm seriouly guilty with 10 to take care of. But then, I have no human GF... so I'm safe... for now!

[gfa]

Originally Posted by Wyllys

If you're really curious, you might want to try a comparison of the off-axis coverage and quality between your Carvins and a pair of dedicated PA speakers.
I think you'll find quite a difference. What the difference will man to you I cannot say, but if you find the time and opportunity for a side-by-side trial it's a fun way to spend a bit of time.

Oooh, that would be so nice. Take the whole band to a shop that's well-stocked. Set up and play through a few different configurations. Have assistance from a well-informed salesperson. Sadly, that ain't gonna happen.

@RustyAxe - I think the dumpee here will be playing in really noisy places. That was just a fling, anyway.