#16
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The scale length of a string is the length of the string available to vibrate, period. Sometimes physics disagrees with guitar lore, and this is one of those times. Yes, the scale length is a bit different on every string, which drives some people crazy.
IMHO, the scale length of a particular guitar is the distance from the saddle side of the nut to the nut side of the saddle, taken at the midpoint of the nut and midpoint of the saddle. It is a reference number. So, in designing a guitar, you choose the scale length, which is used in the calculation for fret locations. Then somewhere down the line you compensate the saddle, to get the tuning more exact...which alters the scale length of those strings...which means you should recalculate the fret positions, which means you should....keep chasing your tail. Guitars are not exact instruments in terms of tuning. Capos and even forming chords with your fingers result in pulling strings out of tune. But like the bumblebee that theoretically cannot fly, some guitars still sound good to our imperfect ears, anyway.
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Angie |
#17
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Unless you are making a "multi-scale length" guitar (including a "fan fret"), the scale length is the same for all strings. What differs is the amount of compensation, giving each string its own actual vibrating string length. Regardless, the scale length remains the same for each string. Quote:
The saddle is then moved away from the nut to make the actual vibrating string length longer than the scale length. Doing so provides compensation for the increase in pitch caused by depressing the strings against the frets and, for some, some correction of inharmonicity. It is, generally, a once-through process with no chasing of one's tail. (There can be some back and forth if one is optimizing intonation using both nut and saddle compensation.) The scale length and fret positions are not changed. By using agreed-upon terminology, communication is facilitated. The generally agreed upon terms, and their meanings, is as follows: Scale length is the theoretical length of the vibrating strings and is used to calculate fret positions. The actual vibrating string length is the "speaking" length of the actual vibrating string. In practice, the actual vibrating string length is always longer than the scale length. Compensation, at nut and/or saddle is the amount by which the actual vibrating string length differs from the scale length. When nut compensation is used, the nut/zero fret is moved closer to the first fret decreasing the theoretical distance from nut to first fret given by the scale length. When saddle compensation is used - it universally is used - the breaking point of the string over the saddle is moved away from the nut to increase the actual vibrating string length. Last edited by charles Tauber; 05-26-2018 at 06:39 AM. |
#18
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TT system. Scale length for me, is simple string length, if it’s a 25.5 inch scale, the length of the string theoretically is 25.5. Bridge and saddle placement is compensated to accomodate string thickness’s and push down of strings when playing Steve
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Cole Clark Fat Lady Gretsch Electromatic Martin CEO7 Maton Messiah Taylor 814CE Last edited by mirwa; 05-26-2018 at 08:48 AM. |
#19
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For me, scale length is what I used to calculate the fret locations. I do that to .001", measure with a tool that is that accurate, then saw a slot by hand that ain't that accurate, not in my hands... But that is what scale length is. I then compensate the nut by the slot width, as mentioned, so the nut is moved 10 or 15 thou. up the neck. I then compensate the bridge saddle by whatever amount works, I don't calculate it particularly, I just adjust the saddle until it's right (archtop, don't you know). I do know this - manufacturers quoted all sorts of scale lengths that aren't all that accurate, notably Martin putting the bridge in the wrong place and Gibson with 24 3/4" scales that are actually 24 5/8", and so on. As long as their fret slotting jigs are accurate, worrying about scale length and trying to adjust same on an instrument is a waste of time.
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Brian Evans Around 15 archtops, electrics, resonators, a lap steel, a uke, a mandolin, some I made, some I bought, some kinda showed up and wouldn't leave. Tatamagouche Nova Scotia. |
#20
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My point is that scale length is a theoretical number used to calculate fret locations, and measuring it accurately on a guitar can be problematic.
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Rodger Knox, PE 1917 Martin 0-28 1956 Gibson J-50 et al Last edited by Rodger Knox; 05-26-2018 at 09:51 AM. |
#21
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You can just say "this guitar has a 25" scale length, and no, you can't borrow my tape measure..."
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Brian Evans Around 15 archtops, electrics, resonators, a lap steel, a uke, a mandolin, some I made, some I bought, some kinda showed up and wouldn't leave. Tatamagouche Nova Scotia. |
#22
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Thanks for all the comments, it has increased my understanding greatly.
Below is a link on the subject I found interesting (below that) is an exert from that same article - it mentions leading edge (Is this the sound hole edge of the saddle or bridge pin hole side.) http://www.lmii.com/scale-length-intonation Find the point on the bridge that is double the length of the nut to the 12th fret and add 1/16" where the 1st string will cross the saddle and add 5/32" where the 6th string will cross. Mark a pinpoint on those two points then draw a line between the points. This will be the forward edge (not the center) of a ramped 3/32" saddle slot. |
#23
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This is a starting point, there is still setting the breakpoints on the top of the saddle. The bold is minimum compensation, the distance from the front of the saddle to the breakpoint is added to that.
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Rodger Knox, PE 1917 Martin 0-28 1956 Gibson J-50 et al |
#24
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Steve, how did that sound when bending strings? Actually I would be curious to know if there was discernable difference or if it was just a fun science project. Cool nonetheless.
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#25
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As much as I disliked doing the job and I have done a few now, it plays pretty good, I’m actually doing another guitar next week with it.
Downsides, all band members must have it done, if you are the only one in the band with it, everyone else sounds out of tune. Steve
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Cole Clark Fat Lady Gretsch Electromatic Martin CEO7 Maton Messiah Taylor 814CE Last edited by Kerbie; 05-27-2018 at 03:05 AM. Reason: Removed masked profanity |
#26
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>> There is probably a way to figure out the scale length by measuring from the 1st fret to the 13th or something, but I don't fell like figuring it out right now.
Measure from the 1st to 12th fret and multiply by 2.25289
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Martin D-18 (1964) Martin D-28 (1971) Ibanez 2470NT (1977) Gibson ES-175 (1981) Gibson ES-165 (1992) Yamaha AEX-1500 (1996) D'Angelico EXL-1DP (2005) Peerless New York (2007) Epiphone Elitist Byrdland (2008) |
#27
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Why the scale length as calculated by 0 through 12 doubled matters is that this is how we figure out where the frets are located. This analysis of scale length is what the rule of 18 (not really 18, but what we call it) is applied to. The actual stop to stop length is called string length, and is also valid, but more useful on violin family instruments than on Guitars. |
#28
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>> Measuring from the 1st to the 13th and doubling it will give you the scale length if you are capoed at the first fret.
That solves a different problem, which is trivial. The problem was to calculate the scale length in spite of the fact that the nut may be compensated by shortening the distance to the 1st fret. >> No one cares. You were joking, but I’m not, although I do think I’m funny in a dry way. I was not joking. The scale length is 2.25289 times the distance from the 1st to 12th fret. Feel free to calculate it yourself: ((2 x K) / (2 - K)) where K is the 12th root of two; 1.0594631...
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Martin D-18 (1964) Martin D-28 (1971) Ibanez 2470NT (1977) Gibson ES-175 (1981) Gibson ES-165 (1992) Yamaha AEX-1500 (1996) D'Angelico EXL-1DP (2005) Peerless New York (2007) Epiphone Elitist Byrdland (2008) |
#29
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Double post
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#30
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My apologies, you are definitely not funny.
Yes, eliminating the first gap and using math can calculate the actual scale length, unless Buzz Feiten is involved. This could be done with the accurate measurement of any single fret gap if one knew which one it was. I do not have accurate enough tools for the precision thus would involve. |