4x2 vs AWD Vehicle Question

[HodgdonExtreme]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Yes having deep lug winter tires in the situation of any accumulated snow depth, is better than the less deep lug All season tire no question . As far as "driving circles around " No not really there are many more factors at play. And in fact on hard pack super glaze snow or ice, winter tires are probably no better than All season, depending on the design of the siping , and in these situations studded tires are definitely superior no matter the drive train.

In reality having all 4 wheels powered can in fact help you steer , and is superior to 2 wheel drive (front or rear) in slippery conditions in cornering and maintaining traction in conditions on hard packed snow and ice especially when ruts are present. As well as deep snow

Now it is also true that while in deep snow the higher ground clearance of Trucks and AWD SUVs is superior. However yes on packed snow and ice highway driving that same ground clearance "can" work against in the form of higher center of gravity.

We'll need disagree with one another, here.

I've 20 years experience operating and testing vehicles from all major manufacturers, of all drivetrain styles, with nearly all modern tire types, at the GM proving grounds, Chrysler proving grounds, and the keweenaw research facility.

I can unequivocally report that winter tires are flatly superior to summer tires, all season tires, all terrain tires, and mud tires when operating in the snow and ice. In fact, it's not even a close comparison. This does exclude chains and studs, which are a huge advantage on ice...

I would positively prefer a FWD car with winter tires, over a 4x4 with anything other than winter tires - with the exception of snow deep enough the FWD car didn't have enough ground clearance. It'd be a tossup between a RWD vehicle with winter tires vs a 4x4 with something other than...

[Acousticado]

Originally Posted by chitz

If Subaru ever builds a pickup truck for the US market... Count me in.

Well, you had your chance!

[GCWaters]

I understand the potential issues, but I’ve driven AWD Subies or Honda’s in Fargo—snow/ice from November to March/April—since 2001....I wouldn’t drive anything else...

[PorkPieGuy]

Originally Posted by Acousticado

Well, you had your chance!

I'm assuming he meant a really pickup truck, not just a "I gotta take the trash out on Saturday" kind of truck.

[fazool]

Technology has come a long, long way.

It used to be you needed a manual transmission to get the best performance. Then a modified automatic transmission (stall and shift kit) could finally perform better than a manual. Now, run-of-the-mill stock automatic transmissions can perform better than a manual transmissions.

Same thing with the drivetrain.

Back in the day, you had to have locking hubs, and synchronous drive axles because that's all there was.

Now, with AWD, symmetrical AWD, X-drive, etc. there is so much technology that I can't see any benefit of old-fashioned 4WD.

[PorkPieGuy]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

I have been looking at vehicles lately and have loved my AWD Honda. It's runs great in Iowa winter snows. But most pick-ups don't have AWD. They have 4x4 and 4x2 drive trucks. My research doesn't find allot of good on 4x2 pick-ups and 4x4 just seems like a waste of gas etc. What do you know about this?

I guess a question that hasn't been addressed is do you need a truck? And what I mean by that is those vehicles that are actually "open back" where you haul stuff (some people in other regions and places in the world consider an SUV a "truck.") If you don't need a truck and are worried about getting stuck somewhere, don't get one (and I'm a BIG fan of trucks!). They are so light in the back, they are super-easy to get stuck, especially if you don't get a 4x4. 4x2 trucks have their uses, but they aren't for everyone.

If you loved your AWD Honda, just get another one.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

We'll need disagree with one another, here.

I've 20 years experience operating and testing vehicles from all major manufacturers, of all drivetrain styles, with nearly all modern tire types, at the GM proving grounds, Chrysler proving grounds, and the keweenaw research facility.

I can unequivocally report that winter tires are flatly superior to summer tires, all season tires, all terrain tires, and mud tires when operating in the snow and ice. In fact, it's not even a close comparison. This does exclude chains and studs, which are a huge advantage on ice...

I would positively prefer a FWD car with winter tires, over a 4x4 with anything other than winter tires - with the exception of snow deep enough the FWD car didn't have enough ground clearance. It'd be a tossup between a RWD vehicle with winter tires vs a 4x4 with something other than...

Obviously we both feel from our experiences that we have the correct view AND Actually we agree on far more than disagree. Like no question on ice and glaze, studs are the absolute best bet, The only thing I see in disagreement, is your blanket categorical statement and I can also "unequivocally report" that any non-studded "Winter tire" being "flatly superior" to any well siped All Season on ice and glaze, as a "categorical statement" is highly debatable. Again it all depends on how well it is siped for ice the tire is , but in practical terms on ice and glaze they both are both fairly useless on medium to steep grades.
We also agree, I almost all ways prefer to dive our AWD Mini Countryman to my 4X4 Dodge 2500 even with both having studded winter tires

But, if we are going to measure "credentials" I will bid my practical winter road experience against "test track" driving any time . With multi hundreds of thousands of miles of driving the all over Intermountain Mountain West all winter long for 30 years. With everything from mountain passes with miles and miles of varying 6% to up to 16% grades ( that BTW sometimes you can't walk on without slipping on glaze or ice ) . To buffeting cross wind situations of 40 to 60 mph at notorious wintertime whiteout driving nightmare locations, such as Elk Mountain on I-80 or Point of the Mountain on I-15 and numerous others, as well as unnamed canyons with vortex and wind shear features .


When this is what your driveway looks like December to May every winter, with a 47 mile commute to town, from 8000 ft down 6000 ft.and back up, in the Rockies, you had better learn a few things about driving on snow and ice..



Trust me on this rutted and irregular grooved, rock hard packed glazed road, un-studded "winter tires " even on this flat section, are only marginally (if at all) "superior " to well sipe'd All Season, and neither is " worth frozen spit" when you try to go over those mountains and this is on a clear day !

[Mr. Jelly]

Lots of great information. Here in Iowa we have winters that I'd put up against anyone's. Driving conditions can very in extreme ways in a twenty minute drive. You can start out in a foot of snow or better with an ice base. Hit the main road that's 100% ice packed. Go to dry concrete to icy patches. Along with having to go through plowed build up snow and ice mounds. Since I love Honda AWD and after having real good experiences with it and all weather tires. I think I may get a Honda Pilot. I am just not hearing anything real great about 4x2 and 4x4 trucks concerning normal everyday winter driving.

One item I'm surprised no one has brought up is the on/off switch to the on board computer for traction. There are times when you are better off turning it off and going old school.

[MikeBmusic]

4 new vehicles ago: Nissan Pathfinder 4x4 first gen. Had to get out and manually lock/unlock the front hubs (PITA). Never got stuck.
3 new vehicles ago: Nissan Frontier 2WD. Had a few times where I could not make it up a slow grade, steeper grade or no grade but with packed ice on the road. Not fun, and I used to put 200 lbs of dried concrete/concrete blocks in the right corner of the bed.
2 new vehicles ago; Nissan Frontier 4x4, turn a knob to engage low or high 4WD. Never got stuck.

Do I NEED a truck? The answer really was 'no'. There sure were times when it was convenient - camping, just throw everything in the back, no worry about fitting everything in. Run a load of brush/branches to he landfill, easy. Until my town clamped down on it, loads of autumn leaves to the landfill was a breeze- I could fill the back of truck (with cap) in 15 minutes, do 3-4 loads on a Saturday morning before it got busy. Pickup a few 8' 2x4s - have to put the tailgate down or cap truck up, but still easy.

Newest vehicle: Subaru Outback, AWD. Didn't get too much snow driving this winter, but enough that it felt secure all the time. 8' 2x4s fit, barely, inside it. No more brush runs to he landfill, though. I've got a factory hitch and can rent a uhaul trailer if I need to do that kind of work.

[HodgdonExtreme]

I greatly prefer to daily drive a car, rather than a truck. I like the lower stance, the agility, the handling, the improved MPG, the ride...

But sometimes you need a truck!

I've found a 5x8 utility trailer allows me to own a car, yet haul homeowner-type loads of stuff with a car. Obviously if you have *real* hauling needs, a passenger car isn't going to cut it, but for bringing home mulch, bags of concrete, fetching used furniture from craigslist, etc, the trailer is a great solution for me.

[PorkPieGuy]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

Since I love Honda AWD and after having real good experiences with it and all weather tires. I think I may get a Honda Pilot.

Sounds like the right tools for the right job.

[Dirk Hofman]

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

Frankly, this is the most important statement in this thread.

Tires.

4x4 and AWD get you going, but they don't help you steer or stop.

A front wheel drive car with quality winter tires will drive circles around a 4x4 or AWD car equipped with all-season tires, when the conditions are snowy and slippery.

I generally take your point and agree, and I grew up with FWD ski-mobiles my entire youth and did amazingly well, leaving a lot of 4WD vehicles in the ditch behind me. But traction control on 4WD vehicles has gotten so good it's cheating these days. My 2015 Silverado is orders of magnitude better in the snow with all-season tires than my 1998 4Runner or any FWD car I ever owned.

Knowing how to drive in the snow doesn't hurt either.

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

Since I love Honda AWD and after having real good experiences with it and all weather tires. I think I may get a Honda Pilot.

Great call. Ours is excellent in the snow as long as it's plowed. For the road to our cabin, the Silverado is the vehicle of need.

[HHP]

A writer I like, John Gierach, once wrote that the only advantage of 4 wheel drive is that you tend to get stuck in more scenic places.

[imwjl]

I think many underestimate the true all weather or dedicated snow tires. I've had them from 3 different makers now. All have been super and especially with really slick and icy stuff.

For a complete knowing this, we have 3 nearly identical Outback cars between a sibling, mother in law and me. Two good friends and other associates have them. They are good no matter what tires you choose. My mother in law has same as original all season tires. One friend alway has Nokians. My brother had different Contis, and then got the snow rated all weather tires I have. It's not scientific measurement but if you drive the same car in with the tire differences you really feel it.

The dedicated winter tires and newer breed of all weather tires are no doubt superior when it's icy and hard packed snow.

[Golffishny]

HHP, I like that quote of JG. In the old days snow tires and 100# in the trunk and we went almost anywhere we wanted. Places where normal all season tires fail. Back then it was normal to change tires with the seasons. These days the trend is all season tires. They are not created equal. Make sure to check the different grades of all season. The trade off is traction versus mileage/quiet ride. Weigh the options and find what works for you.