I feel so torn

[whvick]

I play my Martin D-15 , and love the the sound, but miss the playability of my Taylor 414. And the reverse happens when I play the Taylor.
Is there a guitar out there that would give me the best of both worlds?

[RP]

I'd suggest the new Taylor 327. Simply amazing guitar...

[Wade Hampton]

Playability isn’t brand-dependent; you just need to get the Martin dialed in to where its action and playability match that of your Taylor.

It’s easily accomplished - take both guitars into your nearest competent guitar repair tech, show both instruments to him or her, let her take measurements from the Taylor and then leave the Martin at the shop to have the work done.

The repair tech might want to replace the nut and saddle, and that’s an option that you have. But if you like the sound the Martin has now, your best bet will be to simply get the action adjusted to where it works best for you.

But taking both guitars in for comparison’s sake is crucial. That way the person who does the work will have the needed measurements already written down, and won’t have to guess about anything or base your setup on his own personal preferences.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Steel and wood]

I'm assuming the Martin is all mahogany and the Taylor has a spruce top so there's bound to be differences between the two. (No one guitar that cover that).

[fazool]

Let me not help you, nor advise you nor even answer your question.

But let me commiserate with you:

I have a Taylor GC7 - I really like the sound and love the playability
I bought a Martin D15 - LOVED the sound but not the playability and sold it
I kept my Taylor GC7 - I really like the sound and love the playability
I bought a Martin 000-15 - LOVED the sound but not the playability and sold it
I kept my Taylor GC7 - I really like the sound and love the playability
I bought a Martin 000-15 - LOVED the sound but not the playability and sold it
I kept my Taylor GC7 - I really like the sound and love the playability
I bought back my original Martin 000-15 - LOVED the sound but not the playability and sold it
I kept my Taylor GC7 - I really like the sound and love the playability
I bought a Martin OM-15 - LOVED the sound but not the playability and sold it
I kept my Taylor GC7 - I really like the sound and love the playability


(notice my problem?)

I am currently looking at another OM-15 that is super affordable

[chippygreen]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Playability isn’t brand-dependent; you just need to get the Martin dialed in to where its action and playability match that of your Taylor.

It’s easily accomplished - take both guitars into your nearest competent guitar repair tech, show both instruments to him or her, let her take measurements from the Taylor and then leave the Martin at the shop to have the work done.

The repair tech might want to replace the nut and saddle, and that’s an option that you have. But if you like the sound the Martin has now, your best bet will be to simply get the action adjusted to where it works best for you.

But taking both guitars in for comparison’s sake is crucial. That way the person who does the work will have the needed measurements already written down, and won’t have to guess about anything or base your setup on his own personal preferences.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

Unless it's nut width, fingerboard radius, neck shape, or (weird one and probably unique to me) satin vs gloss neck finish. But Wade, that is course why the best advice is simply just buy a Zager and don't look back.

[Duck916]

Originally Posted by chippygreen

Unless it's nut width, fingerboard radius, neck shape, or (weird one and probably unique to me) satin vs gloss neck finish. But Wade, that is course why the best advice is simply just buy a Zager and don't look back.

Arrghh! Don't start!

[Wade Hampton]

Thank you, Chippy Green. Please say hello to your brother Bowling Green for me.

I recognize that all the factors you mentioned can affect the playing action. But it seems as though we get a thread or two every week on this forum asking “Which brand of guitars has the best playing action?” and every time one of those threads gets started there will be people responding as if good playing action is dependent on the manufacturer rather than the adjustment of the individual instrument itself.

Which is nonsense.

It might be true that some guitar manufacturers ship their guitars from the factory with better factory actions than others, and I think we can all agree that Martin tends NOT to be one of the most playable guitars straight out of the box.

But these issues are easily resolved, particularly on a high quality guitar like a Martin.

Perhaps the Guitar Center marketing approach of “let’s hurry up and get these guitars out the door” is having an impact, in that many first time high end guitar buyers don’t realize that they have the right to insist on getting the action dialed in and optimized for the way they play as a condition of their purchase. But they do, even if the average GC sales smurf isn’t going to volunteer that information.

So I always wince a little bit whenever I see anyone acting as if guitar action and playability are specific to certain brands, because all of that can and SHOULD be done to accommodate the playing needs of the individual player.

Hope that makes more sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

[RalphH]

I will agree with Wade and also add that price point within the brand often determines how much effort was put into the out of the box action. I've had cheap-end (relative term) gibson les pauls that have been near unplayable out the box as where my customshop hummingbird has fabulous action out of the box. My Mexican Taylor had pretty high action right out of the box, especially at the nut end. It was pretty unacceptable in my view.

It's simply a lower skilled and faster job to put a high action on a guitar that have it within a whisker of being too low. It's also less of a judgement call based on how hard the player plays. It's all around safer to put a high action on a guitar and profit margins are skinny enough already on lower models.

It is actually very easy to learn to do your own setups, and though I do sympathise with those that didn't learn to do it earlier in life on $200 guitars, until you get to fret dressing (which I have also done) we are only talking about learning to use a file to shape a piece of plastic (or bone). It is a lot more straightforward than you might think.

If the nut on your Martin is fine then you have a no-risk job. Just buy a bag of saddle blanks and learn how to make one that is just right for you. The nut isn't any more difficult, but as it doesn't just drop out it's rather more annoying if you mess it up.

Dont even worry about string compensation to start with- just make a nice round-topped 'traditional' saddle at a height you like. That's what my hummingbird shipped with being the 'vintage' version and I was surprised how it doesn't really need compensation shaped into the saddle itself, having grown up in an era where it is standard. The differences we're talking about are tiny and make no difference in the first 1/2 of the fretboard. I can measure it at the 12th fret with a tuner that does cent, but I can't hear it- the intonation on my hummingbird is about 2 or 3 cent out which is as good or better than any other acoustic I've had

The simplest way to do it is to put the blank back to back with your current saddle and trace it to draw to radius part. Get that done and drop it in and check it for height. It'll be the same or worse than your current. Then sand down the flat underside to adjust overall height. Keep going until you've ruined it by making too low, then make one then right height

If you have a a string action ruler (about $5 on Ebay) you can get rather more scientific and save yourself a bunch of trail and error time (not insignificant given strings need to go on and off each try)

[Jaden]

I’ve owned one Taylor after which taking it in for a set up, came back with super low action without fret buzz, so I was able to witness the high tech accuracy of the Taylor ebony fretboard for myself - all that said, I have a very good guitar tech in my area with decades of experience who dials in a fine set up, starting with the nut slots, that would be absolutely fool hardy for me to try to duplicate for myself - solution: never underestimate the work of a truly good guitar technician - it may be becoming a rare skill to find in some parts of the continent.

[RalphH]

The nut slots is one thing that really irritates me if not done properly from the factory. Unlike saddle it's not really player dependent - I've met very few people who walk into a guitar tech and say "give me high nut slots so it pulls sharp on the first fret and I can't play an F bar chord without the veins standing out on my neck".

Nut cutting is also less of a DIY job, making it doubly annoying when its not right from the factory. I just see it as the manufacturer offloading part of their build cost to the shop/customer which isn't right.

Except for slide guitar, if your playing style means that you need a nut significantly higher than the 1st fret to prevent buzz then you also will need a 1st fret significantly higher than 2nd, 2nd than 3rd and you need a fretboard that looks like a flight of stairs and you should probably have a look at your technique. Correct neck relief should be all you need.

Saddle, fine, leave it high and let a tech customize it for the individual customer; heavy strummers need high, people with a light touch can have lower, etc etc, but I do wish nuts came right. I had a les paul once with nut slots so high i could keep my cable under the strings at the 1st fret for storage (ok, not quite, but it was truely aweful).

[mcmars]

Check on the scale length difference between your taylor and martin, seems like martins tend towards the longer scale and taylor the shorter. longer scale means more string tension So the taylor will fret much easier and be easier to bend strings and play bar chords, if it is the shorter scale length like I am remembering.

I think the adjustment that makes one guitar play easier than another that most folks overlook is neck relief, the amount of bow in the neck. Many folks will do like I did when I was young and let out the neck when the strings buzz or pull it back when the action is high, but that is not how it works. The neck relief is set first, to manufacturers spec or to your personal liking, then you mess with nut slots and saddle to finish the set up. A totally flat neck is the ideal in a "perfect world, one where your frets are absolutely level and the neck has no twist or humps or low spots. But, that really is not realistic, so you generally want a tiny amount of forward bow and you want your frets to be as level as possible. The tiny bow helps ensure you do not get fret buzz. But too mcuh relief and you have a guitar that has high action on the fret board, but might play cowboy chords okay, fine for a beginner maybe.

It is very common for most guitars to develop a "hump" on the fret board where the guitar meets the body, it has to do with how the neck and body attach and physics of the force and pull of the strings and other complicated things I do not understand, but expect and look for a hump with straightedge tools, it will be there more often than not.

Also, are the strings the same tension? Unless you are flat picking hard and fast bluegrass or want to play/be Stevie Ray Vaughn, then medium strings are pretty tough to play. With a long scale length guitar if you are a light picker or plucker, you might try custom lights(11's) and for short scale lights(12's)work nice has been my experience. Heavy strummer, then light gauge with higher action or medium with lower action. All guitars will buzz, if you pick or strum it hard enough, it is all compromise.

Most all guitar builders will set up the action from the factory medium height, as they want to let the owner adjust it to their climate and playing style and string gauge. If they set the action up super low on verge of buzz with lighter strings, then folks would have to be making new saddles and nuts once the guitar settled in to it's new home and the guitar moves a bit. And action can change on a guitar in your home over time, dry climate tends to lower action as the guitar drys out and neck will pull back and humid climate can result in opposite. It helps to have a consistent climate and keep guitars in the case and not on the wall.

Likely though it is the factory set up you might be observing between your 2 guitars. If memory serves me right Martin specs out very high action at the 12 fret and a pretty big neck relief (bow)(likely for the bluegrass flatpickers?) versus lower more normal action and flatter relief on the taylor. Taylors are very consistent and tend to get sent out the factory with nice average low action and generally play fairly easy. Martins, you need to bring down saddle and mess with neck relief and nut slots more.

Watch some You tube videos and you can learn a lot about how to do a set up and what to adjust first, it does matter. I started making saddles and messing with set ups as a teenager and now do an okay job leveling and polishing frets, making nuts and saddles. If I buy a new guitar, I always wait for a month or longer before I make any permanent changes and let the guitar adjust to it's new climate. Then after a month, when I change out strings for 2nd time, that is when I pull out the tools and check the string action and look for uneven frets with a metal straight edge and and fret rocker tool. I spend a couple hours messing with the frets, leveling and a final polish, clean and oil fret board, new strings and viola, when done, generally it plays so much nicer than before.

I live in a desert climate and have to add humidity, but it seems the guitar knows it is in a dry climate regardless of the amount of humidity I add, so I wait for a while and let it settle in before I mess with it, I learned this the hard way. To learn this stuff, start with a cheap garage sale or pawn shop guitar first and maybe hang out at your local friendly luthier to pick up some tricks.

The stew mac repair guy, Dan Erlewine has written some great books about guitar repairs and set up and has some free u tube videos as well.

My 2 cents, hope it helps! Please correct me as I likely messed some of this up or someone else has more experience than I and knows a better way.

[RalphH]

Nah dude, Taylors are almost 100% 25.5". It's only things like baby, GS mini and academy series that are shorter.

Also, that's really not how neck relief works. Its not to do with frets being level or not. As you get further and further from the saddle the string angle becomes flatter and flatter (simple geometry) so a bit of relief allows the strings to clear the frets more easily at the nut end. Otherwise, you'd need monster action at the body end to make it work at the low end.

[mcmars]

It is "dudette" Ralph, and thanks for the scale clarification. And I totally agree with you on string angle from bridge geometry to clear nut end. There is more to it than just the nut and it involves how a string vibrates along the mid point of the string when it is plucked or strummed, so that is where a touch of relief is needed, to allow room for the string to move without knocking into frets as it vibrates. I was trying not write a book, but thanks for help. Basically, it is all physics and quantum mechanics and all done with mirrors, lol

Originally Posted by RalphH

Nah dude, Taylors are almost 100% 25.5". It's only things like baby, GS mini and academy series that are shorter.

Also, that's really not how neck relief works. Its not to do with frets being level or not. As you get further and further from the saddle the string angle becomes flatter and flatter (simple geometry) so a bit of relief allows the strings to clear the frets more easily at the nut end. Otherwise, you'd need monster action at the body end to make it work at the low end.

[RalphH]

oops, sorry!

I actually wish Taylor did more short-scale stuff as I prefer 24.75 to 25.5 myself. If they did a 24.75" three series GP i'd probably have uncontrollable GAS for one. Not that it makes that much difference, but any excuse to resist unnecessary GAS is a good one. I don't need a GP, I just want one